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 Post subject: Phantom breech lock up?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:14 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:59 pm
Posts: 9
Hey guys, I've been lurking for a little while and just signed up the other day. So the problem is that my phantom is giving me some grief with the breech/barrel lock. It just seems so loose all of a sudden and its causing some shots to go up to 2.5-3" low. When I first got this rifle last week I had to give the barrel a good slap to get the breech open, but now I barely have to hit it. Its really pissing me off cause I had just started to get some decent groupings after I put my scope on. Could it be the scope? Its a cheap Canadian Tire Tasco 4x15. I just don't think its the scope cause I put one on the bulls eye then the next one wasn't even in the rings. I've put about 500 pellets through it if that helps. Any advice would be appreciated.
-TheBeatie

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Crosman Phantom .22 Detuned. Short non-vented piston, weak spring, Tasco 4x15 Scope. Soon to get brass pivot washers and barrel detent shim. Tac1 piston and spring once I get my PAL.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:38 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:16 pm
Posts: 1271
Location: United States
If the catch isn't holding the barrel closed anymore then it's a problem... The scope can be a problem too, they typically need to be shimmed to match the barrel angle and the parallax adjusted. The parallax is typically set to 100 feet, but some scopes are set to 100 yards. If you shoot at the standard 10 meters then you'll have problems. Best to check it at the range you usually shoot at.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:03 am 
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Ok so I've been doing some reading and tomorrow I'm going to remove the barrel detent and do some filing and shim the spring. Along with that, I'm going to go and pick up some brass washers for the pivot. Hopefully that will tighten things up a bit. Or should I look at something else?
-TheBeattie

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Crosman Phantom .22 Detuned. Short non-vented piston, weak spring, Tasco 4x15 Scope. Soon to get brass pivot washers and barrel detent shim. Tac1 piston and spring once I get my PAL.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:07 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:55 pm
Posts: 6845
Location: Rocky Mtn Hse Alberta
DO NOT File and grind on any of those bits you mention!

the pivot bolt is the issue as it backs off from tight.
brass shims may help but check the bolt first!

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Walter


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:26 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:35 pm
Posts: 295
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
What Walter said. The pivot bolt should be snug enough that the brl can't fall under its own weight after cocking. Where ever position you put the brl after cocking it should stay. But easily moved with gentle force from your hand. Snug up that bolt before you attack any metal in the lock up.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:48 am 
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Location: Fredericton, NB
X3 with the gents who are talking about the pivot bolt, when you move the barrel up and down, can you see the bolt moving ?

if it is then you know its loose...you can tighten it and put some blue thread lock to stop from loosening on you again

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 1:16 pm 
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Location: Thunder Bay,On.
Two more cents.....my phantom pivot bolt became slightly loose and the barrel would break open with the slightest bump from placing the gun on the shooting bench bag.Tightened it up and its been fine now for the last 8 months.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:16 pm 
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Location: United States
Having a tighter pivot bolt will help, but a bandaid fix imo. Plus being tighter means more wear will take place on the washers. When I assemble one of these guns, which I use brass washers on, the tightness is such that the barrel will drop to maybe 4 oclock under it's own weight, maybe 5 with a running start. After some use it will drop a bit easier. Point being the latch is doing all the holding. How much they hold varies drastically from gun to gun. Some guns the barrel pops open very easily, others you have to hit them pretty hard. I also take the latch out and sand the hole it slides in, smooth the latch a bit, dry lube it all then grease. This reduces friction and hangups which allow the spring to do its job. Some guns have a lot of friction there, after all it's made in china so they're very roughly machined.
If the thing still refuses to latch I might consider shimming the spring, and/or adding a spring in the center of the original, or using a stronger spring if you can find one. I've never had to do this, but some have. If still not satisfied it would no doubt reshape the latch. The latch is ~$2 in the US, so I suppose you should check price and availability before you tamper with it.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:57 pm 
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Guess I shoulda checked here first, but it didn't really make a difference in the accuracy anyway. About a dime grouping horizontally, but the vertical will go anywhere up to 2 inches high or low. Its pissing me off. Think Wally world would take it back? I've just about given up on it.

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Crosman Phantom .22 Detuned. Short non-vented piston, weak spring, Tasco 4x15 Scope. Soon to get brass pivot washers and barrel detent shim. Tac1 piston and spring once I get my PAL.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:52 pm
Posts: 269
Location: Ottawa
TheBeattie wrote:
Guess I shoulda checked here first, but it didn't really make a difference in the accuracy anyway. About a dime grouping horizontally, but the vertical will go anywhere up to 2 inches high or low. Its pissing me off. Think Wally world would take it back? I've just about given up on it.


How does it shoot with open sights?

Jim


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:59 pm
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Roussfam wrote:
How does it shoot with open sights?

Jim

I took the scope off and put 30 rounds through it and sometimes I'll get a decent shot others it'll go low or high. It looks brand new so I might just box it back up and take it back to Walmart. They probably wouldn't know the difference.

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Crosman Phantom .22 Detuned. Short non-vented piston, weak spring, Tasco 4x15 Scope. Soon to get brass pivot washers and barrel detent shim. Tac1 piston and spring once I get my PAL.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:34 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:16 pm
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Location: United States
Inadequate lockup seems to popping up more and more lately. I don't have any that do that but I haven't bought one lately. things like this are bound to happen. I assume the barrel catch latches on a crossbar and not a similar looking but fixed catch? If so then the barrel block may be hitting that crossbar preventing it from fully closing against the seal. You can see this with the barrel fully open as a shiny line on the block. It's common to have that line because they often hit when closing the barrel, but they shouldn't be preventing lockup. Again, no doubt cause this close tolerance to be off and screw the pooch. Options are to remove some metal from that block so it can rotate closed more and against the seal, and/or using a different breech seal. The problem with the oem seal is it's a rather stiff plastic that takes a set, it takes shape so eventually it will be smashed too flat and not do its job. So it may have worked at first, but as it compressed, well you get the idea. You could try adding a new seal which will no doubt fail in the same time frame, or you could shim your seal or a new seal to buy you time. I'd consider using a rubber O-ring instead which will not smash down and should seal better anyway. And if adjusted to the correct height it will hopefully fix the problem. No guarantees, but odds are good and it's cheap so worth a try imo. The O-ring to get should be a size 109, which I would get Buna 70. Do not use a cheapie O-ring like something made of a different kind of rubber, like a variety box from china. Generally you can tell by looking at it if it's quality or not, that is once you see a quality one to compare. Cheaper material often isn't compatible with petrol based oil and the like, plus no doubt has a shorter life than Buna.
The 70 is hardness, and the most common. The second most common is 90 which is no doubt a bit too hard so I'd only use it if there was no 70 to be had. Also, the groove for breech seal may be too deep for an O-ring to stick out enough because the oem seal is not round but more like a short section of tubing. It'll make sense when you pull it out. Point being so you may need to shim it with something so the seal sticks out the proper amount. Crosman sells teeny little metal shims to compensate for the poor machining from gun to gun, but it may take several and their min price on parts seems to be $1.15. Your Canadian source will no doubt charge much more, if you can find them at all. Some people use other items to shim the seal, just be careful it's even. I was thinking maybe some solid 14ga copper wire, generic household stuff, then form it into a ring and carefully cut it so there's no gap at the ends. Then sand it down a bit on each side until it's the perfect thickness. Apparently some guns use a thinner seal, I think maybe only newer guns, so the O-ring may be a perfect fit as-is? I'd pull yours out to see. It can be tricky to get the old out without damaging it, if you care about reusing it. I use a stiff single edge razor blade to catch the edges and pry it up. Crosman carries a 109 O-ring breech seal btw, which is meant to fit the NPS style guns. NPS is what I call them anyway, but they're different guns and include the older Remington models like the NPSS, new Benjamin Limited, the new TrailNP2, and the new Phantom with an "A" at the end of the model #. The Crosman part # for that O-ring is CRS5177A013, and is also $1.15. To be clear that's US $ in the US, so no doubt your cost is double or more. A hardware store should have a Buna 70 #109 and will no doubt be <$1.
And remember, the amount the seal sticks out determines how much of that slack it will take up. So you need to shim enough to make it snug and seal well, but ideally no more than that. The further it sticks out the more the barrel points down and more likely the seal will leak at the top edge. Pita I know, but if you get a new gun you may have the same problem and new ones. The biggest problem imo is the barrels are poorly rifled, so if it seems to shoot straight, excluding the vertical string, I'd keep it and fix it. The next gun may shoot all over with no hope of fixing. The barrels can often be cut and/or worked with some sanding and/or compound to greatly improve them, but it's not a cure. More pita stuff I know, but you get what you pay for.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:53 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:59 pm
Posts: 9
Thanks for the good read Chevota! Really good stuff right there. So my rifle does indeed have a cross pin in the latch assembly. And it does have impact markings on either side of the breech block. Now should I shave a couple of thous off the block? Or should I do something else? I think I'm going to add another couple of shims to the alive jam (the locking pin) spring and see if that helps. And then I might try recrowning the barrel, key word: might. As for the breech seal, I'm going to go down to Lordco after school tomorrow and see if they have any o-rings. Side to side the grouping is at my old standard (I used to compete with the Junior Canadian Rangers), but the vertical is terrible. Again thanks for the great information, all of you!
-TheBeattie

Edit
I forgot to mention, that pivot bolt was as tight as I could get it by hand. I actually chipped my screwdriver trying to get the damn thing out. I dunno if it was to tight and warping/benting something. I'm going to bring my calipers home from school tomorrow and make sure the forks are perfectly parallel. Just thought I should mention it.

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Crosman Phantom .22 Detuned. Short non-vented piston, weak spring, Tasco 4x15 Scope. Soon to get brass pivot washers and barrel detent shim. Tac1 piston and spring once I get my PAL.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:03 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:16 pm
Posts: 1271
Location: United States
If my previous post doesn't make sense in some places it's because someone edited it. Maybe Canadians doesn't care about being censored, but I do. If admin doesn't want me here just say the word... If I catch my posts being edited again I'm gone.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:26 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:59 pm
Posts: 9
Well either way it made enough sense to me. Still, I'd like to know why it was censored. Anyhow what do you recommend? Should I take some off the bottom of the block? Like I've already said I'm going to do some measuring and I'm going to order some honda moly paste and some brass washers for the pivot. Any ohter suggestions?
-TheBeattie

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Crosman Phantom .22 Detuned. Short non-vented piston, weak spring, Tasco 4x15 Scope. Soon to get brass pivot washers and barrel detent shim. Tac1 piston and spring once I get my PAL.


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