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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:32 am 
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Location: Ontario,Canada
TheBeattie wrote:
Well either way it made enough sense to me. Still, I'd like to know why it was censored. Anyhow what do you recommend? Should I take some off the bottom of the block? Like I've already said I'm going to do some measuring and I'm going to order some honda moly paste and some brass washers for the pivot. Any ohter suggestions?
-TheBeattie

Would you care to share a link for the brass pivot washer(s) source?.... I would like to get some also.Thanks,Huck

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Crosman Phantom .22 ...UTG High mount,UTG 3-9x40 Hunter mil-dot scope
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:29 pm 
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Huck, I was just going to order some from Lowe's and make them myself. They're 99 cents
for a pair.
-TheBeattie

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Crosman Phantom .22 Detuned. Short non-vented piston, weak spring, Tasco 4x15 Scope. Soon to get brass pivot washers and barrel detent shim. Tac1 piston and spring once I get my PAL.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:44 pm 
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Location: Surrey BC
Had a issue like the OP on my X5 Stoeger. Was working great then it went south. Literally! A drop in POI about six inches and to the left by a inch and a half. My wife's cousin was using it at the time and he was slamming it open and closed. Something I never do.

Long story short I had a HFT meet at Mission a few days later so I just bought another X5 and switched all my stuff over to the new gun. It's shooting well for now but I suspect it will fail with time.

I watch this thread with interest. Maybe it will guide me in a future repair.

My next purchase will be a non break barrel rifle. Setting with a German accent...

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Two Stoeger Arms X5 .177s (long story)
Crosman 2240 RedDot sight... awaiting further modification....
Crosman M4-177
More to come....


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:04 pm 
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NFG wrote:
Had a issue like the OP on my X5 Stoeger. Was working great then it went south. Literally! A drop in POI about six inches and to the left by a inch and a half. My wife's cousin was using it at the time and he was slamming it open and closed. Something I never do.

Long story short I had a HFT meet at Mission a few days later so I just bought another X5 and switched all my stuff over to the new gun. It's shooting well for now but I suspect it will fail with time.

I watch this thread with interest. Maybe it will guide me in a future repair.

My next purchase will be a non break barrel rifle. Setting with a German accent...


Hmmm that could be part of the issue. I'm not exactly gentle with mine. That and I think I over tightened the pivot screw, no matter how much I try I can't get it out now. So I've pretty much decided to box it up and take it back to Walmart and then drive an equal distance in the opposite direction to the other Walmart and buy another one :P So I'll probably have an update later this week/weekend. That is unless anyone has any other suggestions by Wednesday.
-TheBeattie

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Crosman Phantom .22 Detuned. Short non-vented piston, weak spring, Tasco 4x15 Scope. Soon to get brass pivot washers and barrel detent shim. Tac1 piston and spring once I get my PAL.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:23 pm 
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Location: United States
Beettie: Yes I would remove some metal from the bottom of the block, but only after I determined it was too much to allow a correctly fitting O-ring from sealing, which is no doubt the case.

Pivot bolt/washers: One problem some people have if they tighten the bolt too much is they can never get it back out. It locks up just like a chuck on the tapered shaft of a drill press. If anyone is familiar with that, very little force to put in on yet as far as trying to twist it off it might as well be welded. Many people have had to drill the bolt head out, and many of those ruined their receiver in the process. I use dry lube on the head and receiver surface to act like antiseize, then I tighten the screw just a little bit. Imo it's purpose is to be a pivot point and to hold the ears from spreading apart. The tension should be set by using the correct thickness metal washers. Just regular store bought 5/16" SAE Brass washers are what I use. They're supposed to be .0625" thick which is often a good size form most Crosman guns, but since most fasteners are imported from SE Asia the base metal has become thinner. Sometimes you can get lucky and find 062, sometimes thicker since the quality is all over the place, but typically it's <060. In that case you'll likely need to use a shim of some sort so they're a tight fit. I typically use the plastic from those cheap collapse in your hand .5L water bottles. They're ~.003" thick, so one on one side or on each side should work for most guns. Like the washers, the guns vary so it's impossible to say what thickness your gun will need, you just have to try some and shim as needed. This the why the mfg used plastic washers, with their sloppy tolerances there is no way they could've used metal like German and other mfgs do.
How tight of a fit is snug enough that the side to side play is gone, but not so much that the washers are spreading the ears apart. If the ears are bent outward from too much washer, or bent in from too tight a screw, the barrel will never be tight.
So to recap, use generic washers that you'll need to size the OD to fit the gun, then shim as needed to fit snugly between the ears. Then only slightly tighten the bolt because there's no need for it to be tighter.
The metal surface of the ears where the washers will ride if often horribly rough, so you need to smooth that so it doesn't tear up the softer brass. You'll see the course machine work when it's apart so it'll make sense. You don't have to make it all smooth, which would be too much work anyway, just the top edges of the course marks which would do the damage.
To secure the screw from working loose use some loctite. Or if you're really into it you can drill/tap for a locking screw, a setscrew that locks the head from moving.
While it's apart I would sand the shaft of the pivot bolt and the bushing it rides in, they are not smooth so might as well take care of that while you're in there.
NFG: Closing the barrel harder will compress the breech seal more, and since it doesn't bounce back it cause cause a leak which is probably where the poi drop came from. A new seal or especially a Buna O-ring would my choice in correcting it.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:33 pm 
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NFG: Closing the barrel harder will compress the breech seal more, and since it doesn't bounce back it cause cause a leak which is probably where the poi drop came from. A new seal or especially a Buna O-ring would my choice in correcting it.

Could be. But that is a heck of a drop for a leaky seal. I think it's another issue. I can see the droop right at the breach. I will post a picture later. The bolt is not worn. Latch and ball at be it. We'll see...

Busy this week at work. Trade Shows and the season opener for the Whitecaps. Have to "tune" the roof for opening. Work is getting in the way as usual.

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Two Stoeger Arms X5 .177s (long story)
Crosman 2240 RedDot sight... awaiting further modification....
Crosman M4-177
More to come....


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:26 am 
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The pressure to push the pellet is a very short and high spike, so you can easily lose half your power from a small leak. Lay some tissue over the breech and shoot to see how much is leaking. Then manually hold the barrel closed against the breech to see if the power returns.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:33 am 
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Great info Chevota. Will see what is up tomorrow night. I'll post a picture of the breach then too.

Thinking I might switch up the plastic washers as well and clean up the "ears" rough machining while I'm at it. My thinking being I have a spare gun that I can experiment with so why not learn a bit more as I go.

Again thanks Chevota for your advice it's gentlemen like yourself that makes this such a great site to be a part of.

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Two Stoeger Arms X5 .177s (long story)
Crosman 2240 RedDot sight... awaiting further modification....
Crosman M4-177
More to come....


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:43 am 
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Location: Rocky Mtn Hse Alberta
The pivot bolt is there to hold the sleeve against one ear only. The pivot motion occurs on the sleeve only so no need to smooth the bolt surfaces
the plastic washers shims do their job fine when new, being to provide enough pressure on the breech block that it will assist the latch in holding the barrel just right.
be methodical in your approach to a solution. Does the barrel have adequate tension to not fall of its own weight?
What does the crony show you?
Tissue test?
Groups?
Did it ever perform correctly?

Good luck

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:04 pm 
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Voltar: Look at the assy and think about it for a bit and what it does. The problem with the plastic washers is they can't control side to side barrel movement. Just take the gun with the barrel closed and wiggle the tip of the barrel side to side and the problem is obvious. Normally the barrel should settle in the same spot when closed, but if that play is there it can settle a bit off now and then, and a very small degree off at the pivot equals a large shift at the target. The bushing should never come in contact with the ears, if should be a press fit and centered in the barrel block. The tight fitting brass washers help keep the barrel pointing straight, just like in better made guns that use metal washers, but if the ear surface is rough, which it is, then it'll eat at the washers making the assy loose again.
It isn't about holding the barrel up, it's about side to side movement. You can make it tighter to help with lockup, but everything is working correctly you don't need that. Unfortunately the guns vary quite a bit and some can certainly use more friction to hold the barrel, but the catch is the true fix for that. Pita I know, but it is what it is.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:19 pm 
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Location: Vancouver Island BC
Chevota wrote:
If my previous post doesn't make sense in some places it's because someone edited it. Maybe Canadians doesn't care about being censored, but I do. If admin doesn't want me here just say the word... If I catch my posts being edited again I'm gone.

Quote:
If I catch my posts being edited again I'm gone


8)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:28 pm 
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And... Are you suggesting my posts were edited again?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:38 pm 
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Location: Rocky Mtn Hse Alberta
Chev, I am very familiar with the B18/19 Chinese springer. It is not as you describe.
the sleeve is a sliding fit in the block so it pivots on the sleeve.
the screw head is steel on steel with the sleeve holding it hard against one fork.
the screw head is a slip fit in the other fork.
the plastic washers center the block on the sleeve and therefore forks while applying enough tension to hold barrel as required.
I think you are thinking of some other springer?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:34 pm 
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I guess maybe we can agree to disagree then? No hard feelings trust me. To me it's not a contest of who's right, it's about what is right and the solution so people can get the most from their guns. If I'm wrong I'd prefer to know so I can do it right, however I fully believe I'm 100% correct but I welcome the truth if I'm wrong. The bushing on some Crosman guns will slide freely, but the most common generic ones from Crosman like a Titan etc are a press fit. At least they usually are but again tolerances are loose. Just check the barrel by moving the muzzle side, that's all I ask ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:49 pm 
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Chevota wrote:
And... Are you suggesting my posts were edited again?


Not suggesting anything ..............Just be 8)


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