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 Post subject: bullpup definition
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:49 pm 
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A point came up recently regarding what is considered a bullpup. The gun in question does not exist yet. Only on paper, but it will be between 36" and 40" long, but the trigger will be about 6" ahead of the trigger connected to the actual trigger mechanism by a rod., similar to a bulpup. So is it still considered a bulpup ?

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 Post subject: Re: bullpup definition
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:16 pm 
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PROHIBITED DEVICES
Former Prohibited Weapons Order, No. 9

1. Any electrical or mechanical device that is designed or adapted to operate the trigger mechanism of a semi-automatic firearm for the purpose of causing the firearm to discharge cartridges in rapid succession.

2. Any rifle, shotgun or carbine stock of the typeknown as the “bull-pup” design, being a stock that, when combined with a firearm, reduces the overall length of the firearm such that a substantial part of the reloading action or the magazine-well is located behind the trigger of the firearm when it is held in the normal firing position.

which is to say that if you can remove the stock and still have a functioning firearm it's prohibited

someone can correct this if I'm wrong....

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 Post subject: Re: bullpup definition
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:29 pm 
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Ace wrote:
PROHIBITED DEVICES

which is to say that if you can remove the stock and still have a functioning firearm it's prohibited

someone can correct this if I'm wrong....


There is nothing written in Canadian law stating the above.

The other quote...

"2. Any rifle, shotgun or carbine stock of the type known as the “bull-pup” design, being a stock that, when combined with a firearm, reduces the overall length of the firearm such that a substantial part of the reloading action or the magazine-well is located behind the trigger of the firearm when it is held in the normal firing position."

Is what defines a "bull-pup" design which is prohibited.

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 Post subject: Re: bullpup definition
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:40 pm 
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The way I read that, BullPup STOCKS are Prohibited....
Quote:
Any rifle, shotgun or carbine STOCK of the type known as the “bull-pup” design, being a STOCK that, when combined with a firearm....

I suspect that just as there are rifles and shotguns that have barrels less than 18" long that are not only legal, but non-Restricted, a factory produced rifle or carbine of the BullPup design may be acceptable in Canada.... The quote above from the definition of Prohibited Firearms only refers to the stock, and it is widely known that BullPup conversion stocks are Prohibited, and that is why....

EDIT: A quick Google search finds several designs of BullPups that ARE legal in Canada, where there is no separate stock, it is integral to the mechanism of the rifle.... Examples....

Tavor TAR-21
Norinco Type 97
Kel Tec RFB

The website I looked at says they are all non-Restricted in Canada.... http://www.huntinggearguy.com/rifle-rev ... in-canada/
Bob

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 Post subject: Re: bullpup definition
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:35 pm 
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It is confusing, all right.

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 Post subject: Re: bullpup definition
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:33 am 
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In my design, the breach and barrel assembly by itself will be either 28 inches long "or 34 inches long if I decide to use a 30 inch barrel". The stock will be a 2 piece with the rear (shoulder) stock approx 6 inches back of the breach and extending forward under the tube to the trigger. The valve needs to be at the back of the tube. The tube and valve assembly is 24 inches long. So from the shoulder to the trigger, I need at least 14 inches. The trigger tang will be connected to the shoulder stock, so when the stock is removed, it would be difficult to fire.
This is all concept for now, but the cocking mechanism and tube are in progress. I don't want to go into any more detail just yet as this is purely experimental and top secret. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: bullpup definition
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:39 am 
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It will be prohibited. If they can remove the barelled action from the stock, and attach an 'off the shelf' trigger mechanism. Regardless if yours is fixed in the stock or not, if they can fire it without the stock attached, it's prohibited.

The reason the ones Bob listed are all non-restricted is because the stock it integral to the design. Meaning the action is contained in the stock and therefore can't be removed to fire it.

To make it legal, you would need to design an action that no other trigger mechanism could fire and make it part of the stock so it couldn't be removed.

Adding a bull-pup design to any off the shelf gun is a no-no.

Do what you want.

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 Post subject: Re: bullpup definition
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:55 am 
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AirForceAddict wrote:
Ace wrote:
PROHIBITED DEVICES

which is to say that if you can remove the stock and still have a functioning firearm it's prohibited

someone can correct this if I'm wrong....


There is nothing written in Canadian law stating the above.


That is the effect of the law though. Rifles that come from the factory as bullpup rifles are perfectly legal. Any stock that converts a non-bullpup rifle to bullpup is a prohibited device.


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 Post subject: Re: bullpup definition
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:24 am 
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AirForceAddict wrote:
if they can fire it without the stock attached, it's prohibited..

lol....isn't that what I said above .. :?

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 Post subject: Re: bullpup definition
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:15 am 
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Ace wrote:
AirForceAddict wrote:
if they can fire it without the stock attached, it's prohibited..

lol....isn't that what I said above .. :?


I never said you were wrong. I said the law doesn't actually say that.

By wording it that way though, people think that if the trigger is part of the stock, and is not removed with the action, it is fine which is false.

If they can remove the barrel and action and attach a trigger mechanism (with duct tape or fire it with a screw driver, anything) it's prohibited.

That excludes attaching any bull-pup stock to any already manufactured gun. You cannot modify an existing gun to fit into a bull-pup stock and not be prohibited.

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 Post subject: Re: bullpup definition
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:56 am 
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Ok copy that :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: bullpup definition
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:18 pm 
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That makes zero sense!
Every barreled action I know of can be fired out the stock.

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 Post subject: Re: bullpup definition
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:39 pm 
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You took the words right out of my mouth Walter. All my rifles can be fired without the stock attached and I have done so during testing. The design I will be making will look just like a normal gun, similar to the Sumatra. And will be over 26 inches. The only similarity to a bullpup is the trigger tang being forward of the action. The design would allow a normal trigger placement, but would make the gun 42 or 48 inches long. When the action and working parts are assembled, I may decide on a traditional stock anyway, but the question was raised about the trigger placement, so I thought I'd ask.

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 Post subject: Re: bullpup definition
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:48 pm 
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lol....since when do some of these rules make sense :roll: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: bullpup definition
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:11 pm 
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I think the rule regarding BullPup stocks is pretty clear and well defined.... It converts a firearm into a BullPup, where the trigger is ahead of the action, shortening the overall length.... It is the stock that is the Prohibited item, just like a Silencer.... I don't see any mention of being able to fire it when out of the stock or not.... Presumably you could build a BullPup and not put a stock on it, of any kind (including just a butt-plate) and it would be fine, providing the overall length was over 26" and the barrel over 18".... I would assume that if you took a conventional PCP and mounted a remote trigger on it ahead of the action, just hanging out in the breeze, you would be fine.... unless it was designed to be used with one hand, in which case it would be restricted.... However, add a buttplate, and/or a foregrip, so that you could now operate it with two hands, and instead of being non-Restricted, the STOCK (one or two piece would not matter, IMO) becomes a Prohibited item.... while the action inside that stock remains non-Restricted....

The few BullPups that are allowed in Canada as non-Restricted are built that way from the ground up, and have an FRT number issued declaring them to be non-Restricted.... The same thing applies to certain short barreled rifles and shotguns.... you can buy them, but you can't modify something else to look like them.... It may not make sense, but it's the law.... IMO, Joe, there is nothing wrong with the action you are suggesting, including the trigger placement.... However, any STOCK you put on it, whether one, two or more pieces.... is a Prohibited item, because the trigger location is ahead of the action as defined in the law.... and the rifle is shorter than it would be with the trigger in the original location and a conventional stock fitted....

Bob

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