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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:51 pm 
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Oic, how did you heat the seal? I've never heated one so I don't have experience with drawbacks.
After the end of the metal liner the plastic liner will be unsupported, which is what I meant about the option of filling the space between the piston skirt and plastic liner. Like a couple layers of plastic to fill the gap, or silicone sealant if you can support the plastic so it stays round until dry. Like shim it with something where they butt together. You can use the spring wrapped in paper as an inside guide. Then fill the gap with silicone, let dry, remove the support at the seam and fill. Or however, or just cut the excess off.
It's ok if the spring is a tight fit in the guide, as long it's only tight because the spring is canted. Like a spring that is .810" OD in a hole that is .820" but the spring drags because it's bent is no big deal and still better tight than loose. The liner will be sanded and lubed, and ideally the OD of the spring sanded very smooth so the spring should slide over the surface like wet ice. The same spring in a hole .805 not so good, it'll always be tight on the entire spring and slow the piston down. Note that after sanding the spring it's OD is also a bit smaller. Sanding the ID of the piston the ID and OD of the steel liner can make a noticeable difference in the fit for the spring. Sanding the plastic liner thinner is not so easy. It's hard to sand evenly, and it takes forever. If you use a power tool you risk overheating it and it will shrink and/or warp. If you attempt using a tool then practice on spare plastic. I think an orbital sander may be the only option, even then you might need to wet sand. Also know that bottles vary, so you might have one 2-liter bottle that's closer to .010", another closer to .020. Or one where the surface is fairy even in thickness or maybe .008 thicker at one end. All I can say is try several different bottles and different types like 1-liter and even those skinny little 16oz flavored water bottles etc. Shampoo bottles, Vinegar, anything with a straight body that is long enough should be considered. Then there's plastic retail packaging which is made of really tough plastic, but harder to find a big enough piece.
The plastic sticking out past the steel liner shouldn't overlap, it should be flared out a bit like in the pix. I worry that if overlapped it was because you got it too hot and it shrunk?
The Crosman liner should be easier to make, but it's also a bigger space between the piston and spring. One plastic liner taking up a third of the gap is way better than nothing at all, but if you have the energy make a thicker one or two thinner ones.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:42 pm 
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Location: Hill Spring, Alberta
I heated the seal with a heat gun used for stripping paint. I evidently got it too hot. Today I just dropped the new seal in boiled water but by the time I got it on it was cooled anyway.

I have the plastic piston liners in with the edges butted up so that the plastic in the slotted area feels very hard.

When I get the new springs I'll do some checking, but I suspect that the liner in the Surge will be all I can do and leave the metal liner out. Right now the plastic liner is secured with a "custom fit" washer. I'm hoping that the thickness of the trapped plastic and the washer won't add up to more than the turned in end of the metal sleeve. If I have room for more plastic liner or the metal one once I get the new springs I'll add some. The liner in the 1000 seems pretty good.

I started your trigger mod 4 today as well. I have the hole drilled and tapped but my longest M3 is only about 10mm, so I'll have to try the hobby shop in Lethbridge again.

Having fun.

Peter :D


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:38 pm 
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It's happened AGAIN!! Another broken mainspring. That makes FOUR!!

This time it's my XS46U but I don't want to start another thread for it.

Yesterday it stopped sounding like someone dropped a tool box and just went wham! I liked it, and it was shooting fine.

Today it started to bind when cocking and lubing what I could get at with the stock removed didn't help so I took it apart.

I think the spring broke for the same reason as my Quest. The gun came with a scope stop installed (I think - I certainly didn't tap THIS hole) and the screw holding it on impinged on the interior of the receiver near the back of the spring. It worked away, then broke about 1 1/2 coils off and then I guess the stress broke another 9 coils off the front at which point it started to bind when cocking.

All XS46U owners should check that screw. I guess I will start a new thread just for that piece of information.

I have to hone the receiver to get the chamber out because when the trigger "box" was spot welded on, the metal deformed.

So now it gets the whole tune, buttons and everything.

I've emailed Vortek about a new spring and as soon as they email back, I'll order it.

Peter :D


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:11 pm 
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I think you hold the broken spring record, or at least the # in a time frame.
You should burn some Sage before doing anything.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:44 am 
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Location: Hill Spring, Alberta
Well the Quest is all back together as is the Surge.

The Surge shoots beautifully with the small changes, and the tungsten disulfide dry lubricant which is amazing.

The spring I got for the Quest turned out to be too long, possibly because the top hat while pinning the piston "pepsi" liner didn't seat deeply enough. I was able to install it, but the coils touched before the gun would cock.

I cut that three stage spacer at the back into three pieces. I got the gun to cock, but it was too powerful (my son-in-law has borrowed my Chrony so I don't know fps.). I shoot from sitting position and I couldn't make a group smaller than about 3 inches from 25 yards. I made modifications and finally settled on the shortest spacer plus two washers. It has less power but lots for targets and it's much more controllable and shoots straight again.

I found that I had to remove the "Pepsi bottle liner" from the slot in the piston where the sear engages. I just thought I'd mention it.

I've made my own proper spring compressor, so I've been having lots of fun.

My decibel meter finally arrived from deepest China, and it tells me that both guns from three feet to the side and just in front of the muzzle produce around 103 decibels. From three feet away and opposite the breech they produce around 97 decibels. I don't know if that's good or bad and I never got to test them before the rebuild.

But I'm very happy with the whole project.

Now I wait for the XS46U spring.

Peter :D


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:36 pm 
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Which spring did you get for the Quest that was too long, and too powerful?
The tophat needs to be ground down to fit, which is mentioned in the guide.
Are you sure about the liner in the slot? The sear/catch shouldn't be able to reach that far in.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:31 pm 
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I ordered a spring for a Quest 1000, so I assumed it was the correct one when it arrived. When I put it in there was a lot of pre-load, and the gun was scary hard to cock. (And wouldn't latch.)

I ground down the top hat around the circumference so that it would fit inside the liner and it fit very well that way. It didn't occur to me to grind some off the top of it as well.

When I first began shooting after the re-build, the gun would cock, but then after my last adjustment to the spacers it wouldn't "latch". I discovered that if I cocked it and then pulled the trigger with the safety on, the slight movement allowed it to cock, but I didn't feel secure with it like that. I even did a "no-no" and took the rifle without the stock out to the shed where I shoot from and very carefully cocked it. I couldn't see how the trigger movement did anything, and I just fired the pellet straight up (not inside the shed) to get rid of it.

I just can't figure out how changing the spacers changed the way it cocked.

I pulled the gun apart and spent time trying to figure out why that small movement of the trigger made a difference but I couldn't. I pulled the "bearing" from the bearing mod out, backed out the adjustment screw but nothing seemed to make a difference. I re-polished everything and used the tungsten disulfide and finally I decided to cut the liner out of the sear cocking opening, and that worked. It has worked well ever since.

The only thing I haven't checked because I hadn't thought of it until now, is whether in my buffing enthusiasm, the sear itself has a developed slight angle where it engages the piston and has to go extra deep to get past that angle. I'll check that out later today or tomorrow.

The tuning guide is amazing in its detail. I'd never have thought of most of that stuff. The gun is much much nicer and easier to shoot since I did the lube tune.

I had the receiver and barrel out of the stock this morning, and smoothed the part of the stock where the little roller on the cocking mechanism rides. I think that made a small difference to the "smoothness" feel of cocking too.

Peter :D


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:45 pm 
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Couldn't wait until later.

I pulled the trigger off and checked the sear. It seemed perfectly straight and on a 90 degree angle so I polished it a little more, added more dry lubricant, put it back on and did a few successful test shots.

I'm at a complete loss as to why it wouldn't latch before.

But from my point of view, the whole process has been a great success. I even built myself a proper spring compressor so taking the guns apart is now not much more trouble than checking the oil in my truck.

Peter :D


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:32 pm 
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The only mod the tophat needs is what you did, which is reducing the od to fit in the liner, no other work is required. The spring should've worked perfectly so I don't know what happened. If anything they're a bit shorter so there's a little room to shim if you want. The sheath would shim it ~.015 but that shouldn't be enough to cause that.
The trigger deal is the piston has to push the top sear back so it can drop down behind the lower sear, then when the piston is pushed further the catch pops into the hole in the piston, then the piston and sear can fwd to the holding point. If something is preventing the piston from going that far back then the sear cannot pop into the hole unless you pull the trigger which allows the top sear to move further fwd and catch. It'll make sense if you play with the trigger assy out of the gun and simulate what happens.
Notice the pivot pin hole in the top sear is a slot? That's what allows it to go back so it can drop down and allow the piston to pass over. The usual reason for this problem is too long of a spring or too much shim, which the spring coil binds before the piston can go back far enough, but with all oem parts it should work fine.
Now if you changed the angle of the front side of the catch on the sear then the piston may try to push the sear down more than back so it's possible it may bind. Too much angle on the piston skirt may cause that too, or a combo of both angles. I've never seen it happen, just saying it's possible. if that angles is too much then it may be random and only bind up sometimes. Lube on the sears contact points would be a factor, so it's possible it was borderline but the lube prevented it, if so it'll no doubt happen again.
If by chance you ruined your sear you can reshape it a bit or get a new one. You have two choices, one is a whole new trigger assy which the only way they're sold, or buy just the sear from another gun like the NP2, but it needs to modified a bit to work in your gun. Crosman charges ~$11 for the assy, or ~$4.50 for the other sear (US$ in the US). So up to you but it's nice to have the whole assy. For anyone who has the older stamped steel trigger I'd totally buy the assy so you can get the much nicer cast trigger blade.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:23 am 
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I may have changed the angle on the piston skirt. It was chewed up a bit from the rough sear and it hadn't occurred to me that changing the angle while fairing it was a bad idea. I'll check and make it a little steeper if I did. The sear is really hard steel so I don't think I changed its angle, and I polished and lubed inside the oval slot so it would slide more easily on the pin.

I think I faired the sear where it slides against the receiver but I didn't fair the little bit of the receiver where it slides, so I'll do that too.

I'll lubricate the pin so the sear and secondary sear springs can more easily slide on it to reduce the risk of binding.

I've ground off the corners of the assembly's ears where the it fits into the gun. It makes assembly/disassembly much easier.

I have the cast trigger blade and have drilled and tapped it for M3x0.5 and I'm just waiting for the 25mm screws to arrive.

I think I'll order a trigger assembly anyway just to have, and to compare to what is in the gun now. It will also give me a back-up if one of the springs disappears with a tiny "sproing" while I'm doing stuff.

Peter :D

PS: The Surge got the same treatment including the pepsi piston liner inside the metal piston liner etc., and has worked flawlessly since the lube tune was completed. I'm extremely happy with both guns but the Surge has always been a better shooter and still is. I think I'll add some more lead shot to the Quest's butt stock.

PPS: I don't think I've said thank-you for the tuning guide and all the help on the forum. Thank-you.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:24 pm 
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You are welcome. Glad to help, and glad to see someone actually doing the mods since most blow it off as too much work. I think the avg guy just puts a washer or bearing in the trigger calls it good. A few more take it apart for some grease if they're willing to open it up, but it seems few are.
Not saying for sure the angle caused your trigger problem, just that it's possible. Could've been the new sharp edge of one of the sears caught on the rough vertical surface of the other sear, which happened to me once.
If you cycle the trigger by hand like the piston would you'll see what I mean. The upper sear goes back a bit, then down once it clears the lower sear. Then it snaps up into the piston hole but the problem is the spring is also pushing the sear fwd so it's scraping against the lower sear. I suppose it's rare, and oem the sears are rounded so probably close to impossible, but once sharp they can get a better grip.
It'll probably be the edge of the lower catching on the vertical surface of the upper, so check it out and smoothing the rough surface should fix it. One hint to check for that is if you cock it and the trigger won't catch, try pulling the trigger. If it snaps into place when you pull it then it's likely it was caught.
Little details like that are what I mean in the guides when I say they're incomplete. There are just so may little details like that it would be overwhelming if added them all. They're already way too big imo.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:31 pm 
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I've seen what you mean about little details. Since I built my proper spring compressor, and a couple of "custom" tools, I have a hard time not tearing the guns apart again and again to find something else to smooth, and I often do.

On that subject, do you have an estimate about of how many shots that tungsten disulfide will stick around based on the cylinder being honed with 600 grit?

It's terrific stuff and I've put it everywhere I can think of using Q-tips for the small bits, and a dowel with a piece of flannel wedged in a split in one end for the cylinder etc. I even did the barrels with patches and skinny dowelling.

I'm looking forward to getting my Chrony back from my son-in-law and checking/modifying the muzzle velocities. My spring and seals for the XS46U are on the way so I'll do all three. I'm hoping to get them all to shoot in the high 800's to low 900's depending on how they handle it. Based on sound (shot fired to target impact 25 yards away) I think the Quest and Surge are in that range now.

Peter :D


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:57 pm 
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The tungsten should stay in there for life. As the high spots of the sanded surface are worn down it exposed more dry lube so unless some solvent flushes it out I'd say it would have to wear all the way down and that isn't going to happen. Well, not if using buttons. If no buttons it'll certainly last longer than w/o dry lube, and the only problem wear spot is that section just below the scope rail. Wear at that point is mainly for guns with one-piece cocking linkages so you should be just fine. I've seen the dry wear down in engine bearings where the crank wears the softer bearing down in one spot, which happens when dry cranking or low oil pressure, but it certainly helped compared to no dry lube. I actually sand blasted my engine bearings with worked much better than a gentle skuffing of scotchbrite that is recommended. Scotchbrite makes very shallow cuts to hold the dry, sandblasting left the surface looking like sandpaper which can hold a substantial qty of dry. Blasting is tricky on soft metal tho. In my auto transmission I had a real problem with thrust bearings wearing from too much load and a lack of pressurized oil feed, but the dry lube greatly extended their life. Once it wore thru the dry it wore normally, but that initial .001" or whatever of blasted surface filled with dry lube took a while to break thru. An airgun is much harder than a bearing and sees far less use or stress.
The barrel is likely very rough and the pellets very soft so dry will help the lead pass over it but like dry lubing a file or sandpaper it's still going to tear up the pellet. So sanding the lands smooth then dry lube is what you want. If you don't want to risk sanding the barrel much then use 2000 grit, which you can also sand by hand. It'll smooth the high spots in the surface quite a bit and drastically reduce wear on the pellets. The barrel is easy to recoat anyway. In the gun if you have dry mixed with wet then you have that too which helps. Still I'd clean it out once in a while to clean out metal particles just as you would an engine or gear box. Sanding the receiver with 320 or stronger gives a nice surface to hold lots of dry, then 600+ smooths not only to protect the seal but to minimize metal particles. Using just 600 leaves less room for the dry, and not sanding thoroughly does the same. When I do it with 320 it takes quite a bit to really get it all, like the receiver gets hot, drill gets hot and can even wear down the battery. So no way I could do it by hand but a little 600 by hand is better than nothing. So you don't have to be anal and sand as much as I do, but does make a better surface.
It's similar to honing an engine or brake cyl, people hone just enough to scratch it up but few actually do it enough to sand the entire surface 100% because they fear it'll increase the bore diam too much. It's actually pretty hard to increase the bore enough to be an issue, car parts or airguns. The barrel bore is different and can be quickly ruined by sanding, but it's because it targets the lands just like sanding any surface targets the high spots.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:28 pm 
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So I'll treat the tungsten as though it was babbet (if that's how it's spelled).

I pulled my piston out this afternoon and discovered four slightly high spots, two on each side of the cocking slot, and about 1/4" away and an inch or so from each other. There is some sort of tool mark in the slot which appears to be related to the spots. I sanded with 400 grit then 600 and re-applied tungsten disulfide so I'll check in a while and see if I did a good enough sanding job.

I'm really glad I bought this "cheap" gun. It hasn't cost me a lot extra except for a tiny portion of the supplies I got, and it has provided me with hours of fun beyond simply shooting it.

As a bonus, it's become a really good shooter.

Peter :D


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:26 pm 
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Just to finish this thread, I thought I'd post results of the three lube tunes/mods I did with the "manual" from Chevota. (I printed it out.)

The Surge and the Quest were pretty straight forward, but the XS46U not so much. However, the same principles applied to the XS46U eventually ended up working very well.

All three are very much smoother in operation and much nicer to shoot. I copied someone's 953 modification re the extended recoil pad, only on the Quest I put springs in between the pad and the stock and that helped its shootability too. I use the artillery hold, but that pad is about as soft as a frozen puck.

Anyway, these are the numbers from a string of ten, all with the 8.33 grain JSB Exact 4.53:
(To obtain the extreme spread I divided the high/low difference by the average fps and multiplied by 100. I hope that's right.)

The Surge averages 811.5 fps with a high/low of 826.6/794.8 giving an extreme spread of 3.67%
The XS46U averages 881.5 fps with a high/low of 894.9/871.3 and an extreme spread of 2.67%
The Quest averages 837.3 fps with a high/low of 845.0/832.7 and an extreme spread of 1.46% (wow!)

I think I could get the fps numbers higher, but all three guns are shooting very accurately and are fun to shoot, so I'm not going to make more changes unless I need to. I only target shoot from 25 or 36 yards, so those velocities are fine for me.

Thanks again to everyone, particularly Chevota for all the help.

Peter :D


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