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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:00 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:14 pm
Posts: 661
Location: Mississauga, ON
RobertMcC wrote:
Sorry you feel this way, but not being able to talk about things you legally can. Makes others just look at this sport/hobby and laugh.

Legality has nothing to do with it. This forum is not a democracy. If you don't follow the rules of the forum see how long you last. There are specific forum rules about modifications to pistols. I don't necessarily agree with all of them, but I appreciate the forum and it's members too much to argue.

Read: topic43029.html

_________________
Daisy 953 * QB78D * Walther 1894 * Beretta CX4 & PX4 * Zoraki HP01 * Beeman P17 * Walther CP88 Comp. * Crosman 1377/2240/SA6/357-8
Swiss Arms P92 * Colt Commander 1911 * Walther PPK * P08 * Colt Python 357 * TW 1911/Limited * S&W M&P R8


Last edited by lleader on Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:03 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:41 pm
Posts: 997
Location: GTA
RobertMcC wrote:
Sorry you feel this way, but not being able to talk about things you legally can. Makes others just look at this sport/hobby and laugh.


Laugh all you want. We are a group of friendly people who try and help each other out. It may be legal for you to do these mods, but not everyone has their PAL. We don't want people to think that with a quick switch of this or that anyone can have an illegal gun. Yes, it is illegal to have a >500fps gun if you don't have a PAL. Not sure if you follow the media or news stories, but this would would be a juicy one for the right media outlet.
As you laugh at our hobby, ask yourself if you want more rules and regulations imposed by the government just to shoot an airgun. I don't want to have to jump through any more hoops to shoot an airgun, that is a big part of why I enjoy airguns.

If you don't like the rules here there are plenty of other forums you can join. We have rules for a reason.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:16 pm 
Woody wrote:
RobertMcC wrote:
Sorry you feel this way, but not being able to talk about things you legally can. Makes others just look at this sport/hobby and laugh.


Laugh all you want. We are a group of friendly people who try and help each other out. It may be legal for you to do these mods, but not everyone has their PAL. We don't want people to think that with a quick switch of this or that anyone can have an illegal gun. Yes, it is illegal to have a >500fps gun if you don't have a PAL. Not sure if you follow the media or news stories, but this would would be a juicy one for the right media outlet.
As you laugh at our hobby, ask yourself if you want more rules and regulations imposed by the government just to shoot an airgun. I don't want to have to jump through any more hoops to shoot an airgun, that is a big part of why I enjoy airguns.

If you don't like the rules here there are plenty of other forums you can join. We have rules for a reason.


So if you don't have a pal, guess you cannot talk about guns because your legally not allowed to own. So their for not legally allowed to discuses. How about you join NFA, CSSA or CCFR and ask them about preserving the rights of airguns. Or do nothing about it and cry WHY?

I know I joined NFA, CSSA, CCFR about preserving and protecting the shooting sport.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:41 pm
Posts: 997
Location: GTA
RobertMcC wrote:
Woody wrote:
RobertMcC wrote:
Sorry you feel this way, but not being able to talk about things you legally can. Makes others just look at this sport/hobby and laugh.


Laugh all you want. We are a group of friendly people who try and help each other out. It may be legal for you to do these mods, but not everyone has their PAL. We don't want people to think that with a quick switch of this or that anyone can have an illegal gun. Yes, it is illegal to have a >500fps gun if you don't have a PAL. Not sure if you follow the media or news stories, but this would would be a juicy one for the right media outlet.
As you laugh at our hobby, ask yourself if you want more rules and regulations imposed by the government just to shoot an airgun. I don't want to have to jump through any more hoops to shoot an airgun, that is a big part of why I enjoy airguns.

If you don't like the rules here there are plenty of other forums you can join. We have rules for a reason.


So if you don't have a pal, guess you cannot talk about guns because your legally not allowed to own. So their for not legally allowed to discuses. How about you join NFA, CSSA or CCFR and ask them about preserving the rights of airguns. Or do nothing about it and cry WHY?

I know I joined NFA, CSSA, CCFR about preserving and protecting the shooting sport.



You're clearly not understanding the intent of the rules. I'm sorry you don't understand, hopefully someone else can explain it to you. Congratulation on how much you spend and what you've joined though.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:00 pm 
Any hoo...

Spring and Nitro Piston has been ordered. Couldn't decide what I liked so ordered both.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:31 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:55 pm
Posts: 89
Location: Elmira
If you ordered the nitro piston talked about on this thread I would suggest ordering a new spring guide when you order your spring as you will have to butcher the spring guide to install the nitro piston so you would need an unmodified guide to go back to the spring. When you have had a chance to give both a try let us know how they compare.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:39 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:15 am
Posts: 3578
Location: Edmonton
Woody:
Quote:
You're clearly not understanding the intent of the rules. I'm sorry you don't understand, hopefully someone else can explain it to you.


On the contrary, Woody, I think you are stuck on the letter of the law.

I post these sentiments for the third or fourth time, and with the same due respect.

At the time these rules were written, the legality of modding air guns (ultimately, to move a gun to a +500 fps status) was not yet clear to the airgunning community. This forum took the conservative position of "no discussion on mods" to ensure discussions were based on topics that were assuredly on the up-and-up. Today, It is quite clear to everyone in the industry - suppliers - retailers - and users, that there is nothing illegal about modifying air guns (with the exception of mods that would make them prohibited weapons). Outside of that, the law is solely about the credentials to possess.

It is very obvious on this forum that no one is interested in helping, or inclined to help, someone do something illegal. Modifications to change a non-PAL rifle into a PAL rifle are NOT illegal, nor even suspect. Period. You can buy kits on the open market to accomplish this task, and no one will ask for your PAL number before they sell you one of these kits. Modifications are legal.

It is also obvious on this forum that when the occasion does arise when there is even the slightest possibility that the person may not be aware of the law (as in having no presence on this forum), members, first and foremost, make it very clear that a particular mod may change a gun's status, for example, from non-regulated to non-restricted.

So, why not change the rule, then? Let's compare the rule to a municipal bylaw that says you cannot shoot an airgun within the boundaries of the municipality. Do the municipal authorities peep into basement windows to see if anyone has an airgun range? Not likely. Do they haul you downtown if a neighbour complains about "shot-like" noises coming from your house? Not likely (as least the first time, when you admit you're shooting an airgun in the basement). Do they haul you away for shooting an airgun in your back yard? Oh yeah, there's a really good chance there.

One law. discretionary tolerances. Forum administrators are not ignoring the rule; they are applying discretionary tolerances. Step beyond acceptable tolerance (in other words, to the point of suggesting something illegal), and I have no doubt you will be shut down pronto.

Thank goodness for those discretionary tolerances that permit discussion on legitimate activities within the hobby. Consider stepping up to greyscale from your black & white world.


Edit: By the way, I wonder how many members have read the revised rules, which have been up for some time, yet were unannounced.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:49 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:16 pm
Posts: 1271
Location: United States
Agreed that it's only the spring you need, which imo is a good thing. That kit is rather expensive imo, so just order a new full power spring and you should be good to go. Crosman part # B18-00-4D.
You can also buy an aftermarket spring but for cost and best fit I think the oem is the clear winner. Not the best quality, like the gun, but they work pretty frikkin good.
The shorter spacer GPZ mentioned could be done by cutting the oem spacer or fabricating a new one. The cool thing about a full power spring and adjusting the spacer is dialing in the power to make it shoot how you want. An example is one I have which made 18.5ftlbs power after I tuned it, then by removing the spacer altogether it makes ~9ftlbs. So basically doing that or making a spacer of whatever size, I can adj between 9 and 18+ if I want. As GPZ mentioned the full power is a bit harsh in the firing cycle so he chose to make a shorter one.
To both increase power to 18+ftlbs and minimize the harsh firing cycle you really need to tune the gun. For example your main seal has classic damage, so get a new one. Ideally to maximize the seals performance you should sand it thinner. You can also sand the seal in it if if the damage isn't too bad because the sanding will remove the damage. At the very least sanding will make it much better than it was and is good practice while waiting on a new seal. Seals are cheap so I'd buy a 2 or more.
The spring is $6.40 and main seal $1.15 (US$ within the US direct from Crosman), it seems CA pays ~double.
Nitro is cool, but imo harsher cycle than a coil, definitely more $, and higher failure rate. So while advertising claims a nitro is gods gift, it really isn't much better, possibly even worse. Compare a new coil and nitro gun out of the box I think most would say the nitro is way better, but once the coil gun is tuned you'll see the main differences vanish and the coil gun win in every category. Tune the nitro too and they're very close. Yes you can hit 18-20ftlbs in this gun design, but expect more like 15-16 unless you tune it.
If you want more info via a detailed tuning guide with pix and arrows, let me know; chevota at hotmail and I'll send it.
Converting yours to nitro isn't too hard imo, but it's in the guide fyi.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:20 am 
Chevota wrote:
Agreed that it's only the spring you need, which imo is a good thing. That kit is rather expensive imo, so just order a new full power spring and you should be good to go. Crosman part # B18-00-4D.
You can also buy an aftermarket spring but for cost and best fit I think the oem is the clear winner. Not the best quality, like the gun, but they work pretty frikkin good.
The shorter spacer GPZ mentioned could be done by cutting the oem spacer or fabricating a new one. The cool thing about a full power spring and adjusting the spacer is dialing in the power to make it shoot how you want. An example is one I have which made 18.5ftlbs power after I tuned it, then by removing the spacer altogether it makes ~9ftlbs. So basically doing that or making a spacer of whatever size, I can adj between 9 and 18+ if I want. As GPZ mentioned the full power is a bit harsh in the firing cycle so he chose to make a shorter one.
To both increase power to 18+ftlbs and minimize the harsh firing cycle you really need to tune the gun. For example your main seal has classic damage, so get a new one. Ideally to maximize the seals performance you should sand it thinner. You can also sand the seal in it if if the damage isn't too bad because the sanding will remove the damage. At the very least sanding will make it much better than it was and is good practice while waiting on a new seal. Seals are cheap so I'd buy a 2 or more.
The spring is $6.40 and main seal $1.15 (US$ within the US direct from Crosman), it seems CA pays ~double.
Nitro is cool, but imo harsher cycle than a coil, definitely more $, and higher failure rate. So while advertising claims a nitro is gods gift, it really isn't much better, possibly even worse. Compare a new coil and nitro gun out of the box I think most would say the nitro is way better, but once the coil gun is tuned you'll see the main differences vanish and the coil gun win in every category. Tune the nitro too and they're very close. Yes you can hit 18-20ftlbs in this gun design, but expect more like 15-16 unless you tune it.
If you want more info via a detailed tuning guide with pix and arrows, let me know; chevota at hotmail and I'll send it.
Converting yours to nitro isn't too hard imo, but it's in the guide fyi.


The spring was 13$, In total for the spring, piston seal and breach seal shipped was 36$ shipped, Honestly better than the repair kit that was close to 60$ for a piston I did not need.

I bought the NP to kinda review. So your going to get a opinion of a person that barely ever had a break barrel air rifle. This is replacing my multi pump for my pest control that's more quiet. I want the power but I don't like the spring TQ.

Hmm I never looked at the piston seal, Like I said I'm new to springers.

I'll be hitting you up for the guide.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:48 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:33 pm
Posts: 240
Location: Yukon
RobertMcC wrote:
Any hoo...

Spring and Nitro Piston has been ordered. Couldn't decide what I liked so ordered both.


Cant wait for a review, and thanks in advance.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:49 pm 
tango wrote:
RobertMcC wrote:
Any hoo...

Spring and Nitro Piston has been ordered. Couldn't decide what I liked so ordered both.


Cant wait for a review, and thanks in advance.


Both items coming from Quebec, maybe I'll get them by Friday. Just building a spring compressor now because will need it. I'm going to review the spring first because NP might damage my spring guide. So be able to review both.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:24 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:23 pm
Posts: 26
Is this the same with the .177 optimus
With the 1000 repair kit is the fps limited to 700 max?



I'm after doing some research and from what I gathered it's a no
But would like your guys input


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:46 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:09 pm
Posts: 41
Location: Mtl
Chevota ,
I appreciate your technical knowledge and help here on the forum. Still I must admit you've missed one important point while comparing coil spring vs gas spring - the later has at least one clear and quite important advantage - it gives clean linear vector and delivery of power, which is always parallel to the line of barrel. Unlike coil spring there is no rotating force, vibrations, etc. Needless to explain, the gas/nitro spring gives better shot consistency and more precise shooting. The rifle will be not hold sensitive anymore which is yet another advantage especially when you need to shoot from not very comfortable position, upward, etc ( think: "I'll be able to aim and hit more nasty squirrels sitting high on trees" :)) ). I see this gas spring upgrade as a real advantage for the less expensive air rifles.

2 All:
Now I want to make it clear regarding the fps, as many people asking questions.
Today I was able to find my chrony paper note with fps records taken by my PAL owning buddy couple of weeks later the .177 Optimus upgrade using gas spring I sell here on forum. It is to say the rifle has made over 500 shots already, all the dieseling if there was any has settled, etc.
I'm sorry, I was telling the numbers earlier here just of top of my aging head... Still those weren't exaggerated or too far from truth. let's see below:

Caliber .177
Pellet name and weight in gram, three shots every kind of pellet.
Crosman Destroyer EX 0.5g : 843 880 855 - a surprise to me, because these pellets have wide head, so supposed to be slower. But were actually the fastest, but not too consistent though
Crosman Pointed 0.5g : 795 820 812
Crosman Premier Hollow Point 0.5g : 825 811 820
Heavier pellets - lower speed, but better stability and consistency:
JSB Heavy 0.67g : 682 680 683 - wow, you see how consistent the JSBs are :)
JSB Monster 0.87 : 633 634 629 - ok, only 5 fps spread - stable! :)
.. I think these number could be even higher if he would install/upgrade the breach seal.

And for those who wants to squeeze the maximum possible fps out of the budget springer. The gas springs which I sell are made in Russia and people telling good things about it. That why I decided to order a bundle. The guy who owns this business and also works as an air gunsmith for years says that it is actually not a problem to pump them higher/stronger pressure. But the accuracy will suffer and people get locked into heavier and more expensive pellets. The gun will be very hard to cock also. According to him he did it couple of times and it was not very good experience/feedback. My own experience as well as many other people say that having this spring and 800fps on .177 rifle is already makes you wanting heavier pellets such as JSB Exact Heavy 0.67g or even Monster which are 0.87g. That is why even most .22 people consider this spring as a good upgrade for their air rifles and give good feedback -- the .22 plus this spring and lightest /cheapest pellets such as .22 Crosman Domed, Hollow point or Pointed work smooth.

So far, only 4 pcs left. Unfortunately I didn't see much demand and the profit is minimal. So please check the detail in the ad and let me know, until it is not too late... ;)

_________________
.177 Crosman Optimus + Vado Performance Kit
.177 HW97k + JM Hornet Mk6 Kit


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:32 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:16 pm
Posts: 1271
Location: United States
npMtl: Your statements about coil and nitro are mostly those which are spread by false advertising and rumors. The only one that's actually true is coil are noisier, but that can be fixed and end up as quiet as a nitro, or even quieter.
Your friends velocity #'s are very low btw, so either he has a long piston, weak nitro, or both. Add about 50% power and you have a full power gun like mine using an oem Crosman coil spring.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:05 pm
Posts: 15
Woody wrote:
RobertMcC wrote:
Sorry you feel this way, but not being able to talk about things you legally can. Makes others just look at this sport/hobby and laugh.


Laugh all you want. We are a group of friendly people who try and help each other out. It may be legal for you to do these mods, but not everyone has their PAL. We don't want people to think that with a quick switch of this or that anyone can have an illegal gun. Yes, it is illegal to have a >500fps gun if you don't have a PAL. Not sure if you follow the media or news stories, but this would would be a juicy one for the right media outlet.
As you laugh at our hobby, ask yourself if you want more rules and regulations imposed by the government just to shoot an airgun. I don't want to have to jump through any more hoops to shoot an airgun, that is a big part of why I enjoy airguns.



Honestly, there is way bigger things in the media than air guns... They are covering wars in Syria, Iraq, Israel, Donald Duck (Trump), Terrorists, Refugees, EU Problems...

also, as you stated in an earlier post in this thread, this information is freely available online from a simple google search. If the media were chomping at the bit for this huge blockbuster story of a few people adding 100fps to their airguns, they'd have done it already... They'd rather cover real gun violence and mass shootings with AK47's in the US and Police violence against civilians...

Please, save your rant, as a few others have already pointed out here...


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