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 Post subject: Gauging interest
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:56 am 
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Location: Central West River Nova Scotia
I would like to do sort of a poll, to gauge interest in single stroke pneumatic guns. So heres the scenario. Who would like to see, a single stroke pneumatic, that get,s 12 ft. lb. energy, or around 650 fps, in .22 cal . Is easy to pump, and is under 6 pounds ? And what would you pay for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gauging interest
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:27 am 
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Location: Tecumseh, Ontario in South Western Ontario
I used to have a daisy 753 that claimed to have 4.5fpe but I found it only had about 3fpe and it wasn't what I'd call easy to pump.
If you could pull that off I'd be in!

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 Post subject: Re: Gauging interest
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:24 am 
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I have not been able to find a single stroke " rifle" in .22 cal that,s bieng sold. Anyone know of one ?

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 Post subject: Re: Gauging interest
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:56 am 
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Location: Okanagan,BC
Sort of like an Alecto on steroids...

Sounds good to me!


:)


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 Post subject: Re: Gauging interest
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:13 am 
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Location: Tecumseh, Ontario in South Western Ontario
I don't think they can generate enough power in one stroke to fire a .22 at that speed. The Benjamin 392 and 397 multi pumps have the kind of power you're talking about.
--Ed.

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 Post subject: Re: Gauging interest
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:06 pm 
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Location: Vancouver
The Webley Paradigm pulled it off but for whatever silly reasons only a handful were ever made. Brilliant rifle:

http://youtu.be/pJGKkL7vxy4

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/ind ... ic=74546.0

For my part, well, I probably have enough airguns............ yeah, right. Like that's even possible. Still, I'd have to be fairly moved by the accuracy and functionality. Aesthetic elements wouldn't worry me a lot, as if i didn't like the look and feel of the stock I'd just change that. When I saw the Paradigm I was all like gimme, NOW! But as it sunk in I felt the bulk of the thing was a bit much, kind of a beast. I'd like something lightweight, compact, even with a removable pipe stock or folding stock, or as a takedown rifle similar to the Air Arms TDR. My heaviest rifle is a bottled QB78D with Leupold glass, coming in at a hefty 7lbs 3oz. Wouldn't want anything heavier than that, scoped. Lighter would be better.

Money-wise? Depends a lot on quality. For FWB-level finish and durability I'd pay $2,000 at least. For something decidedly home made but still sleek enough not to make me doubt the quality, and something straightforward to take apart and maintain, $1,000 would seem sensible. These are both assuming dime groups at 25 metres at least. Not much point buying a new rifle if it can't hit targets. If you're considering just an action, with users buying their own barrel and stock, perhaps $600 for something decent, though of course that's variable depending on just how good this thing is. I'd expect it to be at least Baikal quality in terms of being able to fire hundreds of thousands of shots with only the odd seal replacement.


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 Post subject: Re: Gauging interest
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:46 pm 
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I examined the action of the paradigm very closely and could see one flaw at least, that they might not have over come. Hence the absence of a production model. Also I assume the weight, especially the forward weight, seems heavy. The long cocking stroke, and while it was touted as surprisingly easy, looked hard to me. As for the action, the only seal keeping the air in before firing, is a tiny o ring at the tip of the valve stem. I tried that approach during some experiment,s and after a few shots, the O ring,s always failed.

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 Post subject: Re: Gauging interest
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:45 pm 
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I simply can't imagine a single-stroke pneumatic that (A), puts out 10+ fpe and (B) is truly easy to cock. My price point would, of course, depend on the "accoutrements," but I'd certainly pay in the same range as an power-equivalent Diana springer. Easy-to-cock: That's the key!


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 Post subject: Re: Gauging interest
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:28 pm 
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Well it doesn't seem so far fetched to me, owing to my experience with the Baikal 46m. That pistol develops about 3.5fpe and the cocking stroke is so easy that I was able to shorten the lever by 1/3 with no noticable increase in effort. Easy stuff. Easier than the third stroke of a 1377 anyway, and that's pretty easy. With a lever twice as long or a bit longer (say, an 18" lever on the rifle) I can easily see generating 4x that power level without making the thing too difficult to cock.

Of course I'm only guessing. Not much of a clue about how leverage multiplies. Still... it seems to stand to reason that a percentage of force put into a system should come out the other side, that percentage being based on the efficiency of the mechanism. An efficiently designed SSP ought to be capable of delivering similar power levels as delivered by an efficient springer, no? Or are SSPs inherently less efficient? If Webley could build a 12fpe SSP which impressed a number of reviewers in spite of some design flaws, it seems to me that Joe is onto something. I've given the odd idle thought to making one myself, largely coming from my enjoyment of the 46m. Doubt I have the expertise to deal with the linkages properly though... FWB made 10 metre rifles in SSP format, and so did a couple of other manufacturers I think. Nothing wrong with the type. PCP just came along and stole all the thunder.


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 Post subject: Re: Gauging interest
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:19 pm 
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Debating whether or not such a gun is possible doesn't answer Joe's question.... would you buy one, and at what price point?.... Pumpers aren't springers.... In a pumper, you compress the air, it cools and shrinks, losing some of your input energy as lost heat, and then the air cools again when you fire it, losing more energy.... In a springer, the air is simply drawn into a cylinder, your effort goes into compressing a spring (gas or steel).... When you fire the gun, the spring drives a piston, rapidly compressing the air, and heating it, which raises the pressure even further.... It would therefore be reasonable to expect that the efficiency of a springer is far higher than a pumper, for the same amount of swept volume, and that is indeed the case.... but then you have to deal with the recoil of the piston spoiling your aim....

Let's give Joe the benefit of the doubt about whether or not he can build it.... He's trying to determine whether it would be commercially successful or not....

Bob

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Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
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 Post subject: Re: Gauging interest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:07 am 
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To further help and clarify my request, and the reason for it, is as Bob stated, what is it worth and would you want one. As for , (is it possible ?), the answer is (yes). We are nearly finished our second prototype. The first prototype lacked durability, but obtained 11 foot pounds, or 570 fps avg with a 14.3 gr pellet. And one shot got 590 fps or 11.06 fpe. Some refinements and redesigned valve and pump, on this second prototype, should improve the performance from the first one. I should be able to post video and pic,s soon, if all goes well. Soon is relative though, since this project has been a year in the work,s. So another month is "soon" in comparison. If everything works as I hope, and the finished product work,s and look,s as I envision, then I hope to approach the various companies, to sell it. That,s why I need the feedback to see if it,s worthwhile pursuing.

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If I had only one wish, it would be to be able to "unsay" things.


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 Post subject: Re: Gauging interest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:44 am 
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Location: Tecumseh, Ontario in South Western Ontario
rsterne wrote:
.... When you fire the gun, the spring drives a piston, rapidly compressing the air, and heating it, which raises the pressure even further....

Wouldn't the increasing pressure from heating the air simply retard the pistons progress? There's no free energy.
I'm also impressed with the ease of pumping the Baikal 46m. I often thought their unique linkage could be adapted to a rifle.
I'd say a single stroke pneumatic with that power would be worth at least $500 to me anyway.
--Ed.

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 Post subject: Re: Gauging interest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:27 am 
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Location: Coalmont BC
Search Adiabatic Compression.... The peak temperature in Springers is about 800*F.... I suggest starting your own thread to discuss that further.... or read the Cardew's Book "Airguns, Trigger to Target"....

Bob

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Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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 Post subject: Re: Gauging interest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:01 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:35 pm
Posts: 3099
Location: Alberta Canada
joe hickey wrote:
To further help and clarify my request, and the reason for it, is as Bob stated, what is it worth and would you want one. As for , (is it possible ?), the answer is (yes). We are nearly finished our second prototype. The first prototype lacked durability, but obtained 11 foot pounds, or 570 fps avg with a 14.3 gr pellet. And one shot got 590 fps or 11.06 fpe. Some refinements and redesigned valve and pump, on this second prototype, should improve the performance from the first one. I should be able to post video and pic,s soon, if all goes well. Soon is relative though, since this project has been a year in the work,s. So another month is "soon" in comparison. If everything works as I hope, and the finished product work,s and look,s as I envision, then I hope to approach the various companies, to sell it. That,s why I need the feedback to see if it,s worthwhile pursuing.


Value as to its worth vary upon factors with machining and material types, wood or synthetic furniture. And the amount of time to produce.
Intrest sure why not, single stroke with adequate power for pesting and target.
Price realistically $600+ Economics from a marketable consumers' target area under $450...MHO hope that answers your questions a bit clearer Joe.

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 Post subject: Re: Gauging interest
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:51 pm 
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Location: Central West River Nova Scotia
It isn't the gun Im interested in selling. Its the guts. The valve and trigger are unique, and are what makes it possible to attain 12 ft lb,s. BUT,,,assuming its great to look at, Walnut stock, easy to pump, and tack driver accurate out to 50 yds. and under 6 lb,s.

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