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 Post subject: Pelletgage
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:24 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:11 am
Posts: 322
Location: Near Montreal, Quebec
Anybody here try the .177 cal PelletGage gadget ? Image
My search revealed only a very brief Post from rdstarr last year with similar curiosity /question.

Thanks.

Hawk-i

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 Post subject: Re: Pelletgage
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:19 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:25 pm
Posts: 37
I've got one. I don't use it to gauge every pellet that comes out of a tin, even for competition, but I find it's useful for take a few samples out of a tin and it will give me a range of sizes that I label that tin with. I only sorted through an entire tin once, (it was very time consuming) and that was just to prove that the tin was way off it's stated size of 4.52.
Ryan


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 Post subject: Re: Pelletgage
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:18 am 
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Location: Near Montreal, Quebec
thanks for the reply and your comments, Hunkaluv.
I'd be curious to know which 'brand' of pellets you referenced that where way off the 4.52mm stated size ?

With a newly acquired match grade SSP airgun pistol I've come to realize that consistent pellet head size is very important to get my groupings tighter and facilitates insertion with the 'correct head size' into the breech. A pelletgage seems to be the best way to isolate pellets to meet these needs.
Cheers!
Hawk-i

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Daystate Huntsman Regal XL .25
Weihrauch HW77 Sp Ed .22
DIANA Stormrider II .22
KRAL Puncher .177
S.A.G AR2078-B Match .177
Weihrauch HW50S .117
FAS 6004
Webley Hurricane
Weihrauch HW45 SS .22
Daisy Avanti 747
Artemis PP700S-A
'HAVE GUN. WILL SHOOT'


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 Post subject: Re: Pelletgage
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:39 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:32 pm
Posts: 758
Location: Burlington ON
I googled pellet gauge and found a sort of platform thing with different size holes in that you drop pellets through. I assume that is what you are talking about?

I came across this a few weeks ago researching tuning kits. Looks pretty interesting, I think you push pellets through and the lead gets deformed so whatever slightly different sizes they are, they all come out the same:
http://www.airrifletuning.com/products/ ... et-sizers/
Would be interesting to know if anyone has tried one.


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 Post subject: Re: Pelletgage
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:57 pm 
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Location: Near Montreal, Quebec
Quote:
I googled pellet gauge and found a sort of platform thing with different size holes in that you drop pellets through. I assume that is what you are talking about?

Yup! that's the PelletGage (US spelling). They are becoming popular in the airgun community in the USA since introduced about a year ago, I believe ?

Now with the 'gadget' made in the UK you referenced with a Link...that seems like an interesting alternative. I might request further information from the 'maker' to determine if the sizing is applied to the "head' or the 'skirt' or possibly on both of each pellet that is 'forced' through.
Thanks for the info. DDtank Image

Hawk-i

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Daystate Huntsman Regal XL .25
Weihrauch HW77 Sp Ed .22
DIANA Stormrider II .22
KRAL Puncher .177
S.A.G AR2078-B Match .177
Weihrauch HW50S .117
FAS 6004
Webley Hurricane
Weihrauch HW45 SS .22
Daisy Avanti 747
Artemis PP700S-A
'HAVE GUN. WILL SHOOT'


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 Post subject: Re: Pelletgage
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 6:16 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:49 am
Posts: 27
Location: Norfolk,England
I'm from the UK and I have a .177 pelletgage. They are not for sizing the pellet as such but for checking the size of the head. You place the gage on a table and drop a pellet onto the hole and then wiggle it until it goes through the hole. You repeat this with each pellet until you find a hole it will not go through, the size is the last hole that it fitted through.
I tried a batch of JSB Exacts which were marked on the box as 4.52. I found no pellets of that size in the tin, most were 4.5mm, a few were 4.51 and the majority were 4.49. Make of this what you like, I tried them on the target on a 50 yard indoor range and can't say for sure if there was a major difference. The conclusion over here seems to be if you find a make of pellet which suits your gun buy the batch.
If you ever read that a certain pellet performs best in a certain make of gun ignore the post, all barrels are mass produced items and as such vary within a manufacturers tolerance. Within these tolerances you can get good and bad results from the same manufacturer. Even getting the pellet down to a certain manufacturing die is no sure fire way to get good results.
My Pelletgage cost about £45 here from Intershoot so I guess about 85 Canadian dollars in Canada. Strangely enough I'm writing this from a hotel in Banff as I'm over here on Holiday visiting the Rockies.

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 Post subject: Re: Pelletgage
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:51 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:11 am
Posts: 322
Location: Near Montreal, Quebec
norfolkngood,
thanks for the personal view point and experience.
I must say you have a way with words when it comes to your signature Image

Otherwise...nice to hear (read) that you're enjoying our 'Rockies' and the Bow River vistas not forgetting the IceField GLaciers (Yes...I have been there and done that...while hiking (trekking as you say).
Anyway, I am aware of the application the PELLETGAGE permits in determining exactly what size in mm are in a tin of pellets. Seems to really sort them out more accurately than what manufacturers advertise (claim) on their product packaging.
I've decided to go with one (with US currency exchange rate the cost is closer to 67.00CAD)
It is pricey...but probably worth it in the long run and getting to really know the correct head size to match with the airgun barrel 'acceptance' is a big benefit.
Cheers!
Hawk-i

_________________
Daystate Huntsman Regal XL .25
Weihrauch HW77 Sp Ed .22
DIANA Stormrider II .22
KRAL Puncher .177
S.A.G AR2078-B Match .177
Weihrauch HW50S .117
FAS 6004
Webley Hurricane
Weihrauch HW45 SS .22
Daisy Avanti 747
Artemis PP700S-A
'HAVE GUN. WILL SHOOT'


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 Post subject: Re: Pelletgage
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:00 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:49 am
Posts: 27
Location: Norfolk,England
I was quite surprised at the perceptible difference in measuring the head size. In the U.K. Firearms laws are strict so cartridge rifles are relatively hard to buy, however if you have a legitimate reason and are of sound mind you can get them.
Because of this we have a thriving airgun population and over the years we have learnt how to get the most from our airgun whether we are using it for target, Field target or hunting. We even have a couple of monthly magazines devoted to airgunners. Pretty well every airgun made is available to us. We are very lucky in this respect and there is some considerable knowledge available even at local gun club level.
One of our most respected shooters is Brian Sansom, the 2014 World Springer champion and he wrote the following reply about the Pelletgage, surprisingly I still bought one, anything is worth a try if you have an inquisitive mind and if you are on this forum then I think you tick that box.......

Quote Originally Posted by oling View Post
Having conducted extensive pellet testing on one of my rifles, I have found that it likes RWS Superfield in .22 (5.51) more than JSBs, JSB Heavys, AA Fields, H&N FTT and the other usual suspects. I want to purchase a couple more tins of Superfields but the only size that Countryway have is 5.52 head size. What sort of difference is that likely to make to accuracy? Is it more worth my while to just bite the bullet and go for some 5.51s from Uttings and suck up the delivery cost?

Edit, this is Brian's reply

This subject comes up a lot and after a lot of research I can tell you categorically that no matter what it says the head size is on the tin, that tin will contain a whole range of head sizes and most of the time (like 99% of the time unless you get a flukeshly good tin) then the majority of head sizes in the tin won't be the head size quoted on the tin.

You can't even assume that a pellet from a tin of 5.53's will usually have a bigger head size than a random pellet out of a tin marked up as 5.51.

How can I be so sure? Surely I must be talking crap? How can a manufacturer state something on a tin that isn't true - that's against the law isn't it?

How can I be sure?

I've got a pellet head measuring gauge ( PelletGage ) from the US and although the spelling of Gauge is a little annoying to a pedant like me, it actually does a surprisingly good job of measuring pellet head sizes. You need to be careful using it so you don't influence the test but if you are it's extremely repeatable.

I've tested a few dozen tins of pellets with this - mainly JSB variants because I don't have any interest in anything else, but there are lots of people around the World who also have the same gauge and I've read their findings on other forums. Their results mirror my own tests even for non-JSB variants.

Oh, I tried this on a few boxes of the new Premium JSB pellets as well - in fact I did the test in front of a few shooters in Lithuania at the World Championships this year.

Surely I must be talking crap?

Very possibly, I'll tell you what I found and you can make up your own mind as to whether I'm talking crap or just lying to you.. I am from Essex, and I'm a little bit of a dodgy geezer, so who knows - it could all be part of an elaborate master plan?

How can a manufacturer state something on a tin that isn't true - that's against the law isn't it?
Well... they don't state specifically that the head size is 4.51 etc.. it's just a number on the bottom of the tin, so they're not lying to you, they're just not explaining exactly what that number means.

RobF asked Mr JSB himself in Germany a couple of years ago about that number and the answer he got was.. that number is the number that's stamped on the die when they're sent from the tooling company, so that's what we put on the label on the bottom of the tin. When asked how they quality control the head size, the answer was that they don't.

Now you could argue that if the head size stated by the tooling company says 4.51 how could the pellets possibly come out with a range of different head sizes. I don't know the answer to that. I know that they are different sizes, but I can only guess about why that is.. It could be something to do with differences in the lead mix being poured into the die, it could be differences in cooling times, it could be something to do with die's becoming worn over time... I don't know, your guess is as good as mine.

What's the answer then smartarse?

So in answer to your question... does it matter if I buy a tin of 5.52's when I found a tin of 5.51's worked well. The answer is - yes it does matter, but it's not the head size you're really interested in, because it's fairly random. What's most important is the die and batch number on the tin. If it's the same die/batch number/year on the tin then it's quite likely that those pellets will perform as well as the last tin you bought. If it isn't the same batch/die then it's pot luck whether you get a good pellet or a terrible pellet and just getting a tin with the same head size diameter on the tin won't give you the slightest clue as to whether it's going to be good or bad.

That all sounds pretty grim right? But there is some good news.. upto about 35/40 yards there isn't a huge difference in performance in JSB variants and what differences there are probably won't make much difference if all you're interested in is hitting a 1" circle up to 35/40 yards. There are some exceptions to that, but odds are you'll probably be ok.

Where the differences really start to show is when you get beyond that range and start looking at groupings around 50 yards. If getting good groupings at that range is important to you, My advice is to buy a few sample tins of different batch/die numbers (don't worry about head size, it's meaningless) when you find a pellet that works really well - buy that same batch/die in bulk, as many as you can afford, not 1 or 2 tins to tide you over, but maybe 50 tins or more.

You'll also get quite large differences in downrange BC's as well from different batches/dies - if you can find a batch/die that groups well, and has a good BC downrange you're onto a winner - buy more of those.

Would a pellet sizer help?

This is my opinion, but my thinking is that no it wouldn't. The reason for that is if you size 10 pellets, they might not be any bigger than the hole in the sizer, but they certainly won't be consistent. Some will go through the sizer without touching the sides, some will go through and have the lip of the head of the pellet flattened, but the two pellets won't be the same.

You're much better off if you can measure the head size accurately and use a process of selection rather than a process of inconsistent alteration of a pellet.

I don't size, weigh or prep pellets at all.. I spend a bit of time testing several batches and when I find a good one - I buy a load of those and then just tip them into my pellet pouch and get on with shooting. I don't mind spending a few hours selecting a good batch with some extensive testing because if I'm going to be spending £400-£500 on pellets, it's worth a few hours of my life to find a good one.

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 Post subject: Re: Pelletgage
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:19 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:49 am
Posts: 27
Location: Norfolk,England
Actually, reading through that thread there may be a minor error, I think the pellets are squashed or formed in the die from lead wire rather than molten lead poured into the die. So the wire is fed in crimped and the die opens to drop the pellet into a dish, rather like a bad day at the dentist methinks.
Must go, it's 3.20am and I'm wide awake, my body is still 7hrs ahead though so it feels like mid morning. Off to Kelowna next so 300miles to do today.

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