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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:24 pm 
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Location: Alberta Canada
Being that airguns have been around and developing for the last 400 years. Once known as the shooting arm only available to the Wealthy and Elite of society. To more modern thinking as a stepping stone of introduction to the shooting sports and the hobby/ hunting enthusiasts.
Big bores rekindling their flavour of new choice to the market here within the last decade.

So can Todays modern built airguns be catergorized as primitive weapons?

Like to hear peoples takes upon this. Your Yes or No and your opinion for your choice. Should make for an interesting topic of personal opinions.

Regards.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:37 pm 
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It is an interesting question. :)

Can find no other defining characteristic for muzzle loaders other than "muzzle loading" (no mention of inline, flint lock, cap lock, match lock) and the requirement for .44cal or greater.

That said...the cartridge length requirement was removed some time ago, leaving only .23 caliber as the minimum requirement.

Any air rifle remotely suitable for hunting big game WILL fall under a firearm classification in Canada.

A hot, slug shooting 9mm Condor would seem to be a firearm of greater than .23 caliber. :wink:

Still have a Green Mountain muzzle loader barrel...42" and .45 cal. Could easily build a blow open valved air rifle around it. Leaving it muzzle loading would actually make it easier to construct. :drinkers:

Modern pcp's are different from the old stuff, but perhaps in reality not so far removed...materials are much better, operating pressures are higher...and yes, so is the performance. Operating principles are still largely the same even if the actual mechanics of the mechanism have changed. The basics however ...reservoir, valve and barrel are still identifiable whether looking at "old" or "new".

The Girandoni/Girardoni was reportedly capable of taking deer sized game. The modern replica by Marin Orro managed in the order of 136fpe....a far cry from the 1000fpe the mysterious "they" tell us we need to take deer.

http://orro.net/2013/05/shooting-the-girardoni/

Arrows kill by causing hemorrhaging and I suspect large bore, slow moving projectiles would do the same. Penetration, size of the permanent wound channel...and shot placement are the keys to success, not an over abundance of fpe.

Al


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:46 am 
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My answer is "yes" and "no". Yes they can be considered primitave because there are even older forms of air powered projectile launchers for hunting, such as blow guns, which are considered primitive. Also in my opinion, "primitive" means, can it be constructed in the wild, using primitive tools ? I say yes, an effective air rifle could easily be constructed that way. However since modern technology has advanced tools and materials, todays air rifles are anything but primitive. Just as todays bows and arrows are no longer primitive.
A better question might be, at what point did air powered weapons change from primitive to modern ?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:27 am 
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To me, an airgun (or anything else for that matter) is not a weapon... until such time as I have to use it to defend myself or a loved one. In which case, anything available (from a car to an axe) will be used as a weapon to inflict as much damage as possible to stop the threat in a minimum of time...


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:27 am 
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No. It is merely a tool/machine bearing advances through the ages. The only thing that can be classified as primitive, is the mindset of a few who misuse these tools.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:15 am 
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Equally interesting how different folks interpreted the original post.....my thoughts went straight to hunting.

Must have something on my mind. :tonqe:

Al


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 4:10 pm 
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Interesting points of view and opinion here. Just thought there would be more responses :( Lots of views though.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 4:30 pm 
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I would just call them tools. Everything advances as time changes.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:43 pm 
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I think primitive in the sense that the principles used then and are still being used now, sure. Springers for example.

But as things move along, like regulators, power settings, electronics, and computer modelling, I'd have to take the next step and say no.

Same questions can be asked for phones or light bulbs.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 8:50 pm 
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Whitewolf wrote:
So can Todays modern built airguns be catergorized as primitive weapons?

In my opinion, speaking in very general terms, is no.
If anything, again speaking in very general terms, I would consider "modern built airguns" to be high tech weapons.
By comparison to their powder burning counterparts, airgun technology and designs have steadily improved over the years with many models becoming rather complex. I expect this trend to continue as new materials, ideas and manufacturing methods become available.
Powderburners on the other hand have not seen as much new innovation or improvement over the last 100 years or so. Basically they still operate on the same design principles and use the same cartridge technologies that were developed around 100-150 years ago.
This is just my opinion, and again speaking in very general terms. I am not knocking powderburners here, I like them equally as much. I just find airguns far more intriguing and less regulated, therefore more enjoyable to own, modify and use.
Happy plinking and tinkering guys.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:47 am 
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Primitive Weapons here in the BC rules include bows, longbows, recurve bows, compound bows and cross bows along with muzzleloading rifles and guns.

There is no mention of spears in the regulations, with which a friend of mine killed a nice black bear a few years back - died almost instantly - collapsed and dead in about 2 seconds. That's primitive & effective. I'd have wanted to be armed with a sword as well, on that hunt.

Air guns, hmm - old ones = antiques.

I personally would not consider air guns as primitive weapons unless used as a weapon.

Being somewhat of a traditionalist, I do not consider the modern bolt (or hammer break-) action'd muzzleloaders as primitive weapons. In truth, the muzzleloaders I own and shoot are not primitive at all, being and having extensive creativity and design- they are quite modern and are the basis for the newer firearms. Indeed, aside from range, my Ml's kill game as well or better than most or at least many modern guns. Nothing primitive in the way they work on game.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:22 pm 
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I would say No; followed by saying they are based on primitive technology that has (obviously) stood the test of time. Definitely a lot of technology/research going into them within the last 10-15yrs that would surely make Lewis and Clark not recognize them anymore

Almost as good as the wheel, nobody seems to have found anything better for a long time, we just made better versions of the wheel as technology permitted :wink: :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:06 pm 
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Well presented Jgoodz420 - today's wheels are far from primitive. If one was using the Italian Air Rifle that L&C had on their journey or one similar, I think perhaps, with it's leather seals etc -
or a stone or wooden wheel on a cart, one could consider THAT primitive. Using the modern versions, no.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:15 pm 
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Weapon yes but almost anything physical can be classified as such when used in that manner. Primitive? Definitely no. Some could be classified as crude but not primitive. Primitive would suggest little development or technology. Today airgun technology is cutting edge with design and production techniques using the most advanced and precise equipment. Even early airguns are a bit of a marvel. At least to me.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:40 pm 
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There is a primal mystique in the art of using air to accurately launch projectiles across distant spaces.

The primitivist in me is attracted to the beauty of the simplicity of a spring-powered air rifle or pistol.

'The Italian philosopher, historian and jurist Giambattista Vico (1688–1744) was the first to argue that primitive man was closer to the sources of poetry and artistic inspiration than "civilized" or modern man.'


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