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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:19 pm 
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Location: Thunder Bay,On.
leadslinger wrote:
I shimmed and blocked the relief hole on a 495 FPS 177 Crosman Vantage. Went from like 470 to 750 FPS with 8.2grns. Cocks easier than a full power one.


That's sweet when you can get away with an easy fix..mind you none of the mods are that hard....its not like you need a machine shop...good job....750 fps with an 8.2 is nice....I just can't be content with 470 fps in a rifle.....

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:28 pm 
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Ruger what difference between PAL and non PAL springs.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:20 pm 
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Where do you order your springs for the Ruger? Are you getting them from Vortek?
leadslinger wrote:
Ruger what difference between PAL and non PAL springs.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:51 pm 
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The amt of shim you can put in varies since the gun and especially springs vary. I don't recall one that couldn't accept shim, but it's usually not much anyway, like one .062" washer or so, sometimes two.
There is also a risk of what compression the spring can handle, so an oem Crosman spring might make xxxfps as-is, then shim it and it makes more, but it'll likely settle and end up somewhere between the old and new fps, even all the way back to the old. How long it takes to settle depends on how much it's fired and total time it spends cocked. I figure just leave it cocked for a few hours to to get right to the end result. This is also why the guns usually lose a little power after use because even w/o a shim it's usually too much and they settle. So it's very possible shimming may settle right back to where it started. The chinese springs vary in quality and strength so you'll only find out for sure after you do it.
A quality spring would be the answer, but as far as I know there aren't any that exact size so you have to (should) mod the gun to accept the new spring. For example a better/stronger Vortek would need a fatter guide so you'd need to improvise. Not a big deal to many of us but very difficult to some.
You can also do things to increase the stroke which is the way to go since stroke is more important (within reason) than spring strength. By stroking it a few mm you gain that power and by default you'd effectively shimmed it too. Plus extra stroke helps increase the compression ratio which helps the gun shoot better and what not.
You can increase stroke a little by sanding the seal thinner, which I always suggest as long as it's done correctly. By moving the trigger housing back you can buy a couple mm, and will likely need the cocking slot lengthened a wee bit to allow that stroke. Another option is modding the piston by moving the sear hole fwd, which is something to consider if you're cutting down a long 500fps piston. I suppose you could make the new hole maybe 3mm fwd compared to the full power piston, then elongate the hole until the gun cocks. That way no need to move trigger and you know you have max possible stroke. Slot needs to be lengthened for that too, which will make sense when you look at it parts and watch them in action.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:59 pm 
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Chevota wrote:
The amt of shim you can put in varies since the gun and especially springs vary. I don't recall one that couldn't accept shim, but it's usually not much anyway, like one .062" washer or so, sometimes two.
There is also a risk of what compression the spring can handle, so an oem Crosman spring might make xxxfps as-is, then shim it and it makes more, but it'll likely settle and end up somewhere between the old and new fps, even all the way back to the old. How long it takes to settle depends on how much it's fired and total time it spends cocked. I figure just leave it cocked for a few hours to to get right to the end result. This is also why the guns usually lose a little power after use because even w/o a shim it's usually too much and they settle. So it's very possible shimming may settle right back to where it started. The chinese springs vary in quality and strength so you'll only find out for sure after you do it.
A quality spring would be the answer, but as far as I know there aren't any that exact size so you have to (should) mod the gun to accept the new spring. For example a better/stronger Vortek would need a fatter guide so you'd need to improvise. Not a big deal to many of us but very difficult to some.
You can also do things to increase the stroke which is the way to go since stroke is more important (within reason) than spring strength. By stroking it a few mm you gain that power and by default you'd effectively shimmed it too. Plus extra stroke helps increase the compression ratio which helps the gun shoot better and what not.
You can increase stroke a little by sanding the seal thinner, which I always suggest as long as it's done correctly. By moving the trigger housing back you can buy a couple mm, and will likely need the cocking slot lengthened a wee bit to allow that stroke. Another option is modding the piston by moving the sear hole fwd, which is something to consider if you're cutting down a long 500fps piston. I suppose you could make the new hole maybe 3mm fwd compared to the full power piston, then elongate the hole until the gun cocks. That way no need to move trigger and you know you have max possible stroke. Slot needs to be lengthened for that too, which will make sense when you look at it parts and watch them in action.


That's what I said....it won't accept a shim that's 1/8th of an inch..or .125...so you'd have to go less....that's all I said..A .064 shim...like YOU said is the same as what I said...its less than an 1/8th of an inch.Didn't say it couldnt be shimmed or anything about all the other various ways to increase fps.Was talking about the spring being so CLOSE to maxing out it wouldn't be worth it on its own with a .064 shim.……so its maxed out...more or less...sorry if you got confused....

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:25 pm 
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Wth? I think your attitude adjustment is what's maxed out. Seems like you're grasping for anything to argue about or ways to put people down, or just just me?

Your post suggested there was no room to shim, I didn't want people to have that impression. Plus lots of people like to make a bearing for the spring, which requires some space and doubles as a shim.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:52 pm 
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Location: Somewheres near the Atlantic
Chevota wrote:
Wth? I think your attitude adjustment is what's maxed out. Seems like you're grasping for anything to argue about or ways to put people down, or just just me?

Your post suggested there was no room to shim, I didn't want people to have that impression. Plus lots of people like to make a bearing for the spring, which requires some space and doubles as a shim.


How about you two, block each other. Because clearly you two have something out for each.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:53 pm 
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Chevota wrote:
Wth? I think your attitude adjustment is what's maxed out. Seems like you're grasping for anything to argue about or ways to put people down, or just just me?

Your post suggested there was no room to shim, I didn't want people to have that impression. Plus lots of people like to make a bearing for the spring, which requires some space and doubles as a shim.


Well...I DID say they(Crosman) crammed just about as much metal in that spring....meaning there is STILL a very little room left.....so I guess I should have said that in the title...like" ALMOST Maxed out"...technically you're correct.....in a nitpicking kind of way......oooops...there I go again... :)
Actually...I'm impressed with your air gun knowledge......You've shown just how much potential there is for improvement in probably ANY make of gun....and many of your posts reveal things I never thought of...so that's cool....and I've been at this for years......

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:08 pm 
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Location: Dryden, Ontario
Yep, you're right.I had to try it myself to shim the full power spring on my phantom just to see and with the thickest shim I could fit in there I found no increase in fps so I took it out.Its just not enough extra compression of the spring I guess.Pretty much maxed, as you said.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:15 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:33 pm
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Location: Yukon
MyCrosman wrote:
Joolz wrote:
MyCrosman wrote:
Done that already...maximum shim with the non pal spring in .177 gave me 670 fps with a cp 7.4 gr. :D


You shimmed a sub pal .177 Phantom and got some 200fps improvement with typical lead pellets? Am I reading this right?
Any idea what gain would result from a .22 Phantom?
Can you show us how you did this? Would like to see pics of the shim you made. Better yet, write us a DIY like leadslinger did, with lots of pics!


A .22 non pal phantom with a "maxed out" shimmed spring will end up at around 530 fps..using a 14.3 Crosman Pointed..I don't remember the fps before the shim...just what I ended up with.I found the Crosman Hollow points slower than the pointed pellets .No need for a visual step by step depiction.Its a simple matter of a 1 inch long copper tube (home depot) placed behind the spring(over the rear guide )with washer between the spring and copper tube..Be sure to have a PAL in hand BEFORE you do this mod.......

Shimmed spring results:

Crosman Pointed.......…......530 fps
Daisy Hollow Points...........550 fps
Crosman Hollow Points.....525 fps
H&N Pointed(15.74 gr).......497 fps



do you know if the copper tube is 1/2 or 3/4 inch copper tuning?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:52 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:33 pm
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Location: Yukon
badrad wrote:
Where do you order your springs for the Ruger? Are you getting them from Vortek?
leadslinger wrote:
Ruger what difference between PAL and non PAL springs.

Image


For some reason, your Ruger 1000 spring looks longer than mine. I have a photo with the 500 and 1000 but cant post. The measurements were
500-215 mm
1000-250 mm
diff of 35 mm or 1.378 inches, this picture looks like a 2 inch difference.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:33 pm
Posts: 246
Location: Yukon
MyCrosman wrote:
Joolz wrote:
Yeah, simple and easy indeed. But unfortunately both my Phantoms (2 diff variations of the same model) are .22 and the gain doesn't justify the trouble - so will proceed with plans to get a full spring for one of them.

The other would be great if I could swap barrels to a .177 (and either do the shim mod or get a full spring). Someone locally was selling a .177 recently but I didn't want a third Phantom. But would like to have a target one and a hunting one, so a possible barrel swap could work. Will have to propose this to the forum members and see if there any takers. At least I assume swapping barrels to be that easy, I have no idea and would only proceed if accuracy isn't compromised. After all accuracy is why I love them Phantoms (and the ergo, stock, open sights despite them being fibre optics).


This is my Phantom 500 .22....at least it was originally a .22...now has.new full power spring.....sights removed...3-9x40 AO scope....177 nitro venom barrel with shroud....sleeved and buttoned piston...shimmed barrel block washers for a great lockup..and it shoots 7.4 gr at 949 fps....but I use 8.64 gr in the 875 range.....


Where do you find the muzzle break?


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