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 Post subject: Re: Tale of Two BRods
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:36 pm 
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Location: Coalmont BC
Nope, just chambered and then push back out through the breech.... The skirt is larger than the head, so will fully engage the rifling when fired....

Bob

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Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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 Post subject: Re: Tale of Three BRods
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:44 pm 
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Location: Coalmont BC
I installed the barrel in the receiver today, and then made a transfer port with a 9/32" ID from a short piece of 3/8" Teflon rod.... I made it to fit the .30 cal lower and accept the .357 cal upper, just for testing purposes.... It sealed up perfectly, and I am delighted to say that Travis was right, it didn't need to seal to the barrel, just between the receiver and valve.... The pressure of the setscrew in the MRod receiver directly over the barrel port presses it down hard enough against the receiver that it doesn't leak when firing, even at 2900 psi.... The valve in the .30 cal lower is an ART-SS Valve with a 0.257" exhaust port, one of the early ones with the 1/4" small end on the poppet, and I am running it with the stock inlet jet, which I believe is a #87.5, or about 0.035".... I have a 51 gr. MDS hammer in place, and the SSG is equipped with an 8 lb/in. spring, with 0.37" of preload (3 lbs)…. Here is what the .30 cal BRod looks like with the .35 cal upper in place....

Image

I tethered the gun at both 1900 psi and 2900 psi, and tested 3 different pellets, all of nearly the same weight, a 77.5 gr. EunJin, the 78.0 gr. JSB (no longer made) and the newer 81.0 gr. JSBs.... At 2900 psi I also tested a 119 gr. BBT-HP and a Lee 154 gr. RF.... The EunJins were indistinguishable from the 78 gr. JSBs, so they are not graphed in the chart below.... The dotted lines are at 1900 psi....

Image

At 1900 psi the velocity is nearly maxed out with a slight gap in the SSG (shown as "0"), so the hammer and spring combination is usable as is.... At 2900 psi the velocity increases somewhat with preload on the spring.... With negative 2 turns of gap (about 4 lbs. of preload on the valve stem) the velocity increases 5% with the pellets and about 10% with the bullets.... so either more spring preload on the SSG or a heavier hammer spring would be necessary to allow proper tuning at that pressure.... Since this is just a preliminary test, with a valve I won't be using, I didn't bother making either change, but it shows what the FPE is that is available with a valve with 1/4" porting and a plenum volume of about 85 cc.... With these results, I feel that the plenum is a bit too small for a .35 cal, there is simply too much barrel volume relative to the plenum volume, and this is limiting the FPE.... On this .357 cal, the plenum volume is less than twice the barrel volume.... On the .30 cal it is nearly 3 times the barrel volume, and in .25 cal it is over 4 times the barrel volume....

I got the following results, testing with this valve....

At 1900 psi
77.5 gr. to 81.0 gr. pellets = 131 FPE Maximum.... 125 FPE with a slight SSG gap

At 2900 psi
77.5 gr. to 78.0 gr. pellets = 173 FPE Maximum.... 158 FPE with a slight SSG gap
81.0 gr. pellets = 176 FPE Maximum.... 162 FPE with a slight SSG gap
119 gr. BBT-HP = 191 FPE Maximum.... 161 FPE with a slight SSG gap
154 gr. Lee RF = 194 FPE Maximum....

As a comparison, I previously used this barrel (though 1" longer) on my Disco Double, running a Cothran valve at 2900 psi.... The Disco Double, however, has a 135 cc plenum.... Here were the results tethered at 2900 psi....

78.0 gr. JSBs = 172 FPE.... and at 1900 psi = 132 FPE
127 gr. BBT-FN = 206 FPE
154 gr. Lee RF = 219 FPE

As you can see, the results with pellets are virtually identical.... However, with bullets, the Cothran valve was able to produce a bit more FPE, but that is probably due to the 60% larger plenum volume.... I am hoping that when I make a new SS valve with a larger throat and ports I can pick up a bit more FPE.... However, that 85 cc Plenum will continue to be a limiting factor to the FPE....

Bob

_________________
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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 Post subject: Re: Tale of Two BRods
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:55 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:44 am
Posts: 356
Location: Interior BC
Some impressive FPE numbers there Bob...Wow!!! For all weight of pellets!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Tale of Three BRods
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:54 pm 
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Location: Coalmont BC
Today I started working on an SS Valve for the .357 BRod…. I couldn't start with an MRod valve unless I wanted to add a longer seat, because the 9/32" port I want would destroy the valve seat, as there simply isn't enough material there.... I looked in my box of used parts, and I found a scratch built valve body that Travis had sent to me where the seat had been moved forward and the port was on an angle.... The threads in the front of the valve were damaged, but I didn't need those, and after some careful measuring I decided I could probably modify it to work....

The ID of the tube I have is a fraction smaller than an MRod tube, so I had to turn down the OD of the valve a few thou to fit.... I then drilled the front of the valve out to 5/8" ID back to just in front of the 4-40 screw holes.... The hole through between those was already just over 1/2", and you can't go to 5/8", it would break through into the threaded holes and the valve would leak.... That 1/2" hole went right back to the valve seat, but I wanted more flow inside the valve, because the thimble of the SS valve will be 7/16" OD.... So, I bored out the back part of the valve ID to 5/8", using an internal threading tool with a 60 deg. point.... Again, I stopped just behind where the 4-40 holes were, but the part behind them, back to the seat, was now 5/8" like the front....

The middle of the valve was still 1/2" ID, however, so I put the valve in the milling attachment on my lathe, and set it up with the 4-40 holes vertical.... I ran a 1/2" end mill down inside the valve and centered it in the hole, and clamped the crossfeed down.... Now, by using the vertical travel on the vice, I could change the round hole into a vertical slot, that was 1/2" wide and 5/8" tall.... This worked perfectly, and now the inside of the valve is 5/8", except for a couple of small bumps on the sides where the 4-40 screws are....

I then drilled the throat of the valve out to a size "P" drill, which is 0.323", and touched up the valve seat by hand with a 1/2" end mill to make sure it was square to the bore.... I then turned a 3/4" ID recess in the front of the valve to a depth of 0.30", to locate the perforated mounting "wheel" which will hold the front of the SS valve thimble.... The last step inside the valve was to machine a snap ring groove to hold that wheel in place.... I tried a thimble, and there is tons of room around it for flow....Here is what the inside of the valve looks like now....

Image

I had to enlarge the port from the 7/32" it was to 9/32".... I centered off the existing port, which was on a 20 deg. angle, and enlarged the hole to 1/4" with an end mill.... It was getting pretty close to the seat, and I still had to go larger, to 9/32, so I reduced the angle to 15 deg. and used a 17/64" end mill to enlarge the port.... That left the top of the port nearly 9/32" fore and aft (because of the angle), so I offset the mill 0.010" higher and lower to make the port oval, but because of the angle it appears round.... I then enlarged the recess for the transfer port from 5/16" to 3/8".... The rest of the port work was done with a Dremel, smoothing the transition of the exhaust port into the throat, and making sure the port was a full 9/32" everywhere.... By the time I was done, I could slide the shank of a 9/32" drill into the port all the way to the throat.... Here is what this huge port looks like.... It is 4 times the area of a .25 cal MRod port.... :o

Image

This valve was made for a Gen1 trigger, and I am using a Gen2 for this build, so I had to mill two more shallow pockets in the bottom to clear the screws.... I had a poppet for an SS valve I built for my 6 mm left over, so I used it to lap the seat, and it looks like it should seal OK.... Tomorrow I plan to make the mounting wheel for the front of the valve, and using the poppet and thimble I have see if I can get it to seal up.... If so, testing should follow shortly.... For now I will use a 105 gr. steel hammer I have left over from the start of the BRod project, before I tried the Cothran and SS Valves.... It may be too heavy, but it will give me a starting point, and I can always borrow the 51 gr. MDS hammer currently in the .30 cal for testing....My gut feel is that I may need something in between, but that will depend on how easy this SS valve opens....

Bob

_________________
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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 Post subject: Re: Tale of Two BRods
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:10 pm 
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Posts: 8972
Location: Coalmont BC
I worked on the inside of the valve today.... I had a poppet and thimble from the first SS valve I made, using the dimensions Lloyd used on his prototype.... The small end of the poppet is VERY hard to machine without breaking it in Delrin, so this one had a brass body with a Delrin overlay.... I have since changed the dimensions, which Travis did too.... in my case to make it easier to machine.... Here is a photo of the parts.... Note the air passage ground into the shaft which vents the area between the O-rings to the exhaust port, that is key to its operation....

Image

Last year I avoided showing any photos of the inside of my SS copy, to protect Travis' investment.... but there have been a few photos posted, and I think most people know what it looks like inside, so I figured there would be no problem sharing what I made myself.... In addition, Travis gave me permission to make a generic drawing of an SS valve to include in the next article I am writing for HAM on balanced valves, thanks Travis.... Here is the completed SS valve.... The valve stem is short enough that the hammer cannot drive the poppet to the end of its travel, which could damage it.... I still have 0.200" of travel....

Image

Here is a photo of the front end, showing how the thimble is mounted, secured by the snap ring.... The way I build the wheel allows a small amount of radial movement for the thimble, so that it can self align with the poppet....

Image

Note the vent hole in the mounting screw.... This allows HPA to enter the front of the thimble, in front of the small O-ring.... The spring only needs to be strong enough to overcome the friction of the O-rings and seal up the valve for initial filling.... Travis uses adjustable jets instead of my fixed 1/16" vent hole, to allow for fine tuning....

Unfortunately, this version didn't work.... The Delrin part of the poppet came loose on the brass rod.... I had another poppet, with a larger front end, that I had made for my 6 mm, but I didn't have a thimble for it.... I made a new thimble, and reassembled the valve.... It STILL leaked.... By this time I was tearing out what little hair I have left.... ::) …. I tried lapping the seat, replacing the O-rings, I even turned the poppet sealing face to re-true it, but the leak got worse and worse, lots of air coming out the exhaust port.... I eventually figured a way to test the O-rings on the poppet, and there was no air leaking out the back of the thimble or through the vent hole, so the only place left was the seat of the valve.... I spun the poppet with a drill to leave a polished ring on the seat, and it was off center, relative to the valve throat.... When I drilled out the throat I guess the drill tended to follow the exhaust port and ended up off center.... Since the sealing margin is so small (0.323" throat and 0.375" poppet) I guess there isn't enough seat on the side nearest the exhaust port, and that must be where it is leaking.... >:(

This is about the hardest thing to fix, unfortunately.... I can either make an entire new valve body, or try to repair the one I have.... Since I have a lot of hours into this one, I'm going to try and fix it.... Tomorrow I plan to make an insert for the back of the valve, with a new throat, seat, exhaust port and valve stem guide hole, and try and get it all straight and centered.... Then I will have to machine out the back of the valve body to install it.... There are a couple of different ways to do this job, I'll be pondering that overnight....

Bob

_________________
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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 Post subject: Re: Tale of Three BRods
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:37 pm 
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Posts: 8972
Location: Coalmont BC
Well I wasted all morning trying everything I could think of to get this thing to stop leaking.... I finally decided to bore out the back of the valve and replace the seat and valve stem hole with an insert.... When I started boring out the back of the valve I heard a strange scraping noise, and found out why it has been leaking all this time.... Travis must have made a seat insert to move the seat forward, because my end mill caught it and spun it around in the valve body.... I pushed it out, and this is what I found....

Image

So the air leak I had tracked down to the poppet on the seat was not the problem at all.... The air was leaking around the sides of this insert and then escaping out the exhaust port.... It may not have leaked when Travis installed it, but by the time I hogged out the ports, there was obviously a crack opening up between the OD of the insert and the ID of the valve body.... ARRGGGHHHH!!!!!....

Anyways, I used a 9/16" end mill, working from the back of the valve, to mill out the inside all the way to (and removing) the seat.... I then had to make an insert, sealed by 2 O-rings, and retained by the three valve screws and a setscrew in the top.... It looks like this.... The insert is upside down, relative to the valve in this photo, so you can see the throat and port better....

Image

There was hardly any room between the seat and the front of the port, so I had to use a thin Metric O-ring and stretch it into place in a narrow and shallow groove.... I hope there is enough material between the groove and the port that it doesn't fail.... There is quite a bit of load on this part (510 lbs. at 2000 psi) so after I installed a setscrew in the top I drilled down and tapped the three valve screws to retain it.... It isn't going anywhere.... ;)

Image

If you look closely, you will see a thin, shiny ring around the throat of the valve.... I spun the poppet around with a drill to lightly polish the seat, and make sure it was centered and had a wide enough overlap.... I don't think there should be any further problem getting this valve to seal, although sliding the insert into the valve body without slicing that tiny front O-ring may be a challenge.... ::)

I've had enough frustration for one day.... Tomorrow I will find out if I finally got this valve to seal up.... ???

Bob

_________________
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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 Post subject: Re: Tale of Three BRods
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:39 pm 
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Location: Coalmont BC
I assembled the valve very carefully today, making sure I didn't damage the small front O-ring on assembly, and I'm please to say there was no leak between the new insert in back end of the valve and the valve body.... I had to disassemble one more time to lap the poppet to the new seat on the insert, and I'm please to say that I now have NO leaks.... Having assembled the tube successfully, I decided to put the rest of the gun together and test it.... I ran into one slight problem, the Gen2 trigger sear was a fraction further back than the Gen1, and the hammer wouldn't latch, so I had to turn the tapered sear catch on the front of the hammer down slightly to shorten the effective length and cocking distance about 0.030".... That did the trick.... I did some tethered testing, rebuilt a regulator for a 2200 psi setpoint, and then assembled the gun for the first time.... I used my 105 gr. steel hammer, because of the larger ports, and it worked great....

Image

The "tiny tank" is what I use for testing and setting regulators, but it allows me to tether using the regulator I will be using on the gun.... and not have to waste a 500 cc bottle of air should I need to disassemble it.... Anyways, here are the results of both the tethered testing, and regulated at 2200 psi....

Image

I tested using the EunJins (I want to use them up and save the JSBs where possible)…. Initial tests at 1900 psi tethered showed the larger ports increased the velocity from 854 fps to 906 fps, an increase of 16 FPE.... slightly better than the difference in port diameter would have predicted, so I am very pleased with the new valve.... My Great White was just under 2900 psi, so I couldn't tether at that pressure.... I just connected directly to it, and tested the EunJins at 2800 psi, then the 119 gr. BBT HPs at about 2750, and lastly the 154 gr. Lee FN at 2700 psi.... Even though the pressures were less than the original testing I did with the ART-SS Valve with the smaller ports, I had higher FPE.... The 154 gr. bullet hit 202 FPE at just 2700 psi, so I am quite please with the way the new valve works.... With the 154 gr. I gained 15 fps at 200 psi lower pressure with the bigger ports.... 8)

I then fitted the 2200 psi regulator with the "tiny tank", and tested with the EunJins and the 81 gr. JSBs (black line above).... With just a whisker of gap in the SSG I got 158 FPE, right what I was hoping for.... With the SSG backed out 3 turns (about 0.17" gap) the gun was shooting right at 150 FPE average with the two weights of pellets.... I shot a 10 shot string with the 81 gr. JSBs, and the ES was only 11 fps, with a low of 910 and a high of 921.... Seven of the 10 shots were 913-917 fps, so the valve is VERY stable.... The average was 150.7 FPE, and the 10 shot string dropped the pressure in my Great White by 41 psi (measured with a digital gauge)…. so the efficiency was 0.97 FPE/CI.... That should give me very close to 2 magazines (12 shots) at 150 FPE when I fit the 500 cc bottle and fill it to 3000 psi.... I can play with the SSG adjustment, and with hammer weight (I can go a bit lighter) to get the best balance between power and efficiency....

All in all, I am delighted with the way this project turned out.... The plenum is a bit small, and if it was increased to 1 cc per FPE the gun would likely hit about 160 FPE at the same setpoint pressure and air use, with greater efficiency.... I rather expected that to be the limitation on the performance.... and it looks like I was correct in my prediction, for both that, and the overall performance.... I hope next Spring I can find time to test it properly....

Bob

_________________
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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 Post subject: Tale of Three BRods
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:40 pm 
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Location: Coalmont BC
Today was consumed with all the little finishing touches on the three BRods…. I had a slow leak in the new .357 cal, which I found was a leaking plug on the bottom of the WAR tank block.... I had glued in that plug with JB Weld, and there was a slow leak spiralling up the threads.... Since I had glued the plug in, I had to heat it with a torch to break loose the epoxy, and once I got it out and cleaned it up, I shortened the plug 1/16" so that it would miss the ASA threads.... I had previously retapped the plug hole, and I went too deep, and the plug was interfering with the ASA threads.... I also removed the male Foster on the tank block and replaced it with a plug, since you fill the bottle through the regulator.... I sealed the plugs with Teflon tape, and that seems to have done the trick.... Once I had that done, I installed the 500 cc 3000 psi bottle, filled it to 3000 psi, and set it aside....

The .30 cal was leak free, so all I had to do was remove the male Foster on the tank block and replace it with a plug.... After a leak and velocity check, I also installed the bottle on that gun, and also filled it to 3000 psi.... Then it was the .25's turn, and I knew it had a serious leak....

It turned out there were actually three leaks, and it took me half a day to repair them.... The first two were easy, a loose plug and a loose gauge.... It was still leaking, so I stripped the gun down completely and replaced the valve O-ring.... but it wasn't that either.... Eventually I tracked it down to a leaking gauge, and once I replaced that it seems to hold air OK now.... I checked the velocity, and it was still what I wanted, so I installed the bottle on that one too, and filled to 3000 psi....

Here is what they look like, now that they are finished.... All three BRods use a modified .25 cal MRod receiver, bored out forward of the front 4-40 screws to accept a 5/8" OD barrel.... They all use a 500 cc, aluminum, 3000 psi bottle for the reservoir, and an SSG to control the hammer.... and have two gauges, one for the bottle pressure and one for the plenum pressure.... The main tubes are from WAR, I believe they were for the FLEX, and yield an 85 cc plenum, including the valve volume.... The tank blocks are also from WAR.... All of them use .25 cal MRod magazines and bolts, modded as necessary....

Image

The top one is the .357 cal.... It uses a Synrod stock, and a Gen 2 trigger.... The barrel is a 1/2" OD, .357 cal, 26" twist TJs, 27" long, glued inside a high-modulas Carbon Fibre sleeve for added rigidity.... It has a steel hammer and a homemade SS valve, and the porting is 9/32" (0.281") or equivalent throughout…. The bolt nose is sleeved up to .357 cal, and the lockup lug is inceased to 10-32 for additional strength.... The mag is a 6-shot one-of that I modified myself....The regulator is mounted on the bottle, and set at 2200 psi.... This results in 2 mags (12 shots) at 146 FPE, using the 81 gr. JSBs at 900 fps....

The one in the middle is the .30 cal.... It uses a modified Bullpup stock that was a gift from Travis, and a Gen1 trigger.... The barrel is a 1/2" OD, .300 cal, 26" twist TJs, 25" long, also glued inside a high-modulas CF tube.... It has an MDS hammer and an ART-SS valve, one of the first production ones with the smaller poppet front end, and the porting is just over 1/4" (0.257") or equivalent throughout.... The bolt nose is sleeved up to .30 cal, and the lockup lug increased to 10-32 for additional strength.... The mag is a 7-shot from AirGunLab…. The regulator is also mounted on the bottle, and set at 2000 psi.... This results in 4 mags (28 shots) at 98 FPE, using the 50 gr. JSBs at 940 fps.... It will shoot the 44.8 gr. JSBs at about 980, and the 59 gr. NOE Hunter Magnums at 880 fps (101 FPE)….

The bottom BRod is the .25 cal.... It uses an airsoft AR stock, on an adapter that I made myself, and a PRod trigger and grips.... The barrel is a 5/8" OD, .250 cal, 17.7" twist LW, 23.8" long, with polygonal rifling.... It has an MDS hammer, and one buffer O-ring between that and the Cothran Powerhouse valve, with 0.257" or equivalent porting throughout, including an oblong barrel port.... The regulator is adjustable, and mounted in the COBRA tank block.... It was a sample from WAR, as I helped them design it, and is set at 1800 psi.... Having an externally adjustable regulator is nice with the Cothran valve, as you have to change the pressure to change the velocity.... This gun delivers 6 mags (48 shots) at 65 FPE, using the 34 gr. JSBs at 930 fps.... It is easy to increase that, or to reduce the pressure to about 1400 psi to use the 25 gr. JSB Kings if desired.... The way it sits, it will launch the Kings at about 1030 fps, which is way too hot....

This has been an interesting project, and I'm happy to say met all the goals I had.... I did some testing with bullets, running unregulated at 3000 psi, and while the performance was remarkable, I think they are much better guns regulated, and shooting pellets.... I hope to be able to do some testing next Spring, after the snow melts.... I must thank Travis for the big box of "spare parts" he sent me when he moved shop a couple of years ago.... Without that, these three BRods would have never materialized.... 8)

Bob

_________________
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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