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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:29 pm 
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Posts: 50
I like that analogy, vAgRaNt, thanks.

Cut the barrel...? Eeeeek! As a kitchen-counter machinist I'm just not there yet.

I'm confused by the comment "FTP and un-altered bleed? :? . . . interesting. . ." ? My goal with the FTP was pumping efficiency, to get to the same pressure with fewer pumps rather than increase power*. The bleed hole is obviously the major factor in power output here, and I've no doubt that I'd be hitting 700-ish fps if it were plugged but I must keep things sub-PAL, so I'll not mess with it!

*(Just dawned on me to check my pre-FTP results: muzzle velocity increased from 389fps to 453fps, so I guess increased efficiency does equal increased power. Like the de-tuned airguns, I'm a bit slow...)

(PS-Doc, what does "bbl" mean? Barrel...?)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:19 pm 
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Wait a minute...
Do those numbers make sense?!? "...muzzle velocity increased from 389fps to 453fps." ?!?!
Is it possible for a FTP to cause a 60fps increase in a 2289 with a bleed hole?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:01 pm 
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At a given number of pumps, yes it is.... For instance at 10 pumps, with an F-T-P you will get more pressure inside the valve than with a stock pump.... The pellet will therefore see a greater initial "kick" before the air vents out the bleed hole, which is in the exhaust port.... I have no idea if an F-T-P in an otherwise stock 2289 will remain non-PAL or not, like vAgRaNt I have never tried it.... If it doesn't exceed 500, it would be an excellent mod to reduce pumping yet remain non-PAL....

Bob

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Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:14 pm 
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Thanks for the info, Bob.

That was the idea - to reduce pumping while keeping both of the 2289's non-PAL. All of the testing was done at 10 pumps.

It seems to me that you could really reduce pumping and remain non-PAL by making a piston with a small relief valve in it such that it limits the pressure in the valve rather than just dumping "excess" pressure out the bleed hole. I'd imagine something like a regulator only working in reverse & venting out the front of the pump tube. So in practice, you'd reach max pressure at, say, five pumps and achieve, say, 460fps max velocity all without the wasteful bleed hole. After five pumps, the pressure in the valve would overcome the force of the spring in the "regulated" piston, so any subsequent pumps would simply vent out the front of the pump tube.
Hmmm...

(PS-Before anyone says it, Yes! I am aware that, for a manufacturer, it would be prohibitively expensive to design & build such a thing just for the CDN market & it's wayyyyy cheaper for Crosman to just drill a damn hole in the damn valve. )


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:05 pm 
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Posts: 197
Can I get a bit of clarity on the pistol/rifle issue? What is it that defines it as a pistol?

Someone mentioned the markings on the tube, but the 2289 doesn't say anything on the tube that would designate it specifically as a pistol. It does say "2289" but that isn't proof of "pistolness" unless one assumes that all 2289s are pistols, which pretty much begs the question. Is it specifically noted on a list somewhere?

Someone also mentioned the removable stock (that doesn't need tools) but mine is bolted on - it is affixed as permanently as any rifle stock. Would it make a difference if a traditional wooden stock was bolted on to the chassis?

Not trying to be a dick - it just seems totally ludicrous to classify an air gun, with a 24" barrel and an attached shoulder stock (in a 2-handed long-gun set up) as a pistol for the purposes of legal classification. 100% of people would give you the common sense answer that it is a rifle.

Part of the reason that seems like such a big deal is because it seems like a lot of people have modded the 13XX/22XX platform. Are they all considered (very) illegal if they exceed the fps required for an RPAL pistol?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:04 pm 
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The RCMP's take on this is "once a pistol, always a pistol".... The 13XX is a pistol, and the 2289 is derived from that.... 2289s are supplied with pistol grips (or at least every one I have purchased came with them.... Therefore, either gun, in the eyes of Big Brother, are handguns, regardless of barrel length, having a stock added, or whatever.... The same thing applies to 2240s and 2250s, but the 2260 is a rifle.... Yes, Crosman now build 2250s that they sell as carbines, but to the RCMP that makes no difference either, even though the manufacturer built them that way (see below)....

I hate it too, but that's the way it is.... That is exactly why I used 2200 or 1400 tubes to build my Uber-Pumpers, because those are rifles.... I had a Carbine that I built based on a 2250 tube, and I tried to get it registered (back when we had a long-gun registry), and was refused because I didn't have my R-PAL and it was over 500 fps.... I was given the option of disassembling/destroying it, retuning it to under 500 fps, or starting with a 2260 tube, and I chose the latter route.... I argued that Crosman was at that time selling the 2250 only as a Carbine, but that fell on deaf ears, and I was informed the rule was as I quoted in the first sentence....

Bob

_________________
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:08 pm 
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Wow. That is nuts.

I am no lawyer, but that seems like something you could argue fairly convincingly if it ever went to court. The RCMP may interpret it that way, but that doesn't necessarily mean it would hold up in court if challenged. At some point, the courts are obligated to consider common sense.

I don't plan to test it or anything (haven't done any power mods to my 2289) but I would be curious how the court would rule on the RCMP's interpretation of it as a pistol no matter what.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:01 pm 
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Dyslexic,

You answered your own question with, "100% of people would give you the common sense answer that it is a rifle."
This is Canada - the law & common sense have not been on speaking terms for a long, long time.
And, sadly, your summation was bang on: "Wow. That is nuts."

More importantly: has anyone any helpful hints on how to construct that regulated piston!
I'm considering taking my spare (flat-headed) valve head & making it the end of the piston. Perhaps a stock poppet (?) valve would work as well?!?! Finding a tiny, powerful spring would seem to be the hard part. How small do Bellville springs come...?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:57 pm 
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Location: Somewheres near the Atlantic
dyslexic_nam wrote:
Wow. That is nuts.

I am no lawyer, but that seems like something you could argue fairly convincingly if it ever went to court. The RCMP may interpret it that way, but that doesn't necessarily mean it would hold up in court if challenged. At some point, the courts are obligated to consider common sense.

I don't plan to test it or anything (haven't done any power mods to my 2289) but I would be curious how the court would rule on the RCMP's interpretation of it as a pistol no matter what.


Stock 2289 doesn't meet the requirement of a non restricted PAL rated airgun. The stock can be removed w/o tools.

Once a pistol always a pistol. Same goes with a 2250 manual might call it a rifle. But the firearm reference table classifies it as a restricted at full power.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:51 pm 
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leadslinger wrote:
dyslexic_nam wrote:
Wow. That is nuts.

I am no lawyer, but that seems like something you could argue fairly convincingly if it ever went to court. The RCMP may interpret it that way, but that doesn't necessarily mean it would hold up in court if challenged. At some point, the courts are obligated to consider common sense.

I don't plan to test it or anything (haven't done any power mods to my 2289) but I would be curious how the court would rule on the RCMP's interpretation of it as a pistol no matter what.


Stock 2289 doesn't meet the requirement of a non restricted PAL rated airgun. The stock can be removed w/o tools.

Once a pistol always a pistol. Same goes with a 2250 manual might call it a rifle. But the firearm reference table classifies it as a restricted at full power.


That is the second time the stock issue has been mentioned. But like I said, my stock is bolted on - it is one of the first mods most people make to the 2289 to make it more stable. Thus it can't be removed without tools. It is also why I wondered whether or not the use of a traditional wooden shoulder stock would impact the classification.

The "firearms reference table" sounds like it is on an RCMP list somewhere, but again, I am curious if anyone has ever been successfully prosecuted for RPAL infractions related to a pimped-out 22XX. It is one thing for an RCMP policy to classify it as a pistol, but it is another for a court to nail someone for pretty serious RPAL violations because he has a seemingly legal PAL rated air rifle.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:06 pm 
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Location: Meaford, Ont.
Guess if someone has money to burn on a lawyer and court fees they could be the test case and then when we all get caught we can say your honor we refer to the case of "The Crown vs dyslexic_nam" He got off the charge and so should we. LOL


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:20 pm 
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Location: Coalmont BC
If you want to push the rules, and become a test case, that is your prerogative.... As I told you in another thread, when I tried to register a 2250 that was over 26" long, with a bolted on stock, as non-restricted (when registering long guns was required) I was refused.... and told that any 2240 or 2250 over 500 fps was considered a handgun, regardless of barrel or overall length, or stock.... The same applied to 13XXs and XX89s, and I explained the reasons given to me....

If you don't want to accept that, I suggest you contact the CFC and ask them.... Please report your findings back here....

Bob

_________________
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:22 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:35 pm
Posts: 6089
Location: P.G. B.C.
dyslexic_nam wrote:
Wow. That is nuts.

I am no lawyer, but that seems like something you could argue fairly convincingly if it ever went to court. The RCMP may interpret it that way, but that doesn't necessarily mean it would hold up in court if challenged. At some point, the courts are obligated to consider common sense.

I don't plan to test it or anything (haven't done any power mods to my 2289) but I would be curious how the court would rule on the RCMP's interpretation of it as a pistol no matter what.



I waltzed into the detachment with a pistol I had built - in 24 hours, for registering. "Where did you get it"? " I built is last night - couldn't sleep" "WHAT?" So- I repeated - "I built it last night, I couldn't sleep, (then added) "in fact, I just finished browning the barrel and I thought I'd better get it registered, right away" ****************** "WHAT"?

Some of them are very narrowly focused.

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Best Wishes
Daryl


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:53 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:23 am
Posts: 2839
Location: Somewheres near the Atlantic
dyslexic_nam wrote:
leadslinger wrote:
dyslexic_nam wrote:
Wow. That is nuts.

I am no lawyer, but that seems like something you could argue fairly convincingly if it ever went to court. The RCMP may interpret it that way, but that doesn't necessarily mean it would hold up in court if challenged. At some point, the courts are obligated to consider common sense.

I don't plan to test it or anything (haven't done any power mods to my 2289) but I would be curious how the court would rule on the RCMP's interpretation of it as a pistol no matter what.


Stock 2289 doesn't meet the requirement of a non restricted PAL rated airgun. The stock can be removed w/o tools.

Once a pistol always a pistol. Same goes with a 2250 manual might call it a rifle. But the firearm reference table classifies it as a restricted at full power.


That is the second time the stock issue has been mentioned. But like I said, my stock is bolted on - it is one of the first mods most people make to the 2289 to make it more stable. Thus it can't be removed without tools. It is also why I wondered whether or not the use of a traditional wooden shoulder stock would impact the classification.

The "firearms reference table" sounds like it is on an RCMP list somewhere, but again, I am curious if anyone has ever been successfully prosecuted for RPAL infractions related to a pimped-out 22XX. It is one thing for an RCMP policy to classify it as a pistol, but it is another for a court to nail someone for pretty serious RPAL violations because he has a seemingly legal PAL rated air rifle.


But like others said the 2289 is a pistol and always will be a pistol. It cant be a rifle if it never was, You added a stock and barrel to a pistol. If you put a Crosman 140 tube on it, then it would be a rifle. But you didn't. Problem with 760 and 2100 tubes is they're not stamped so they can be assumed theyre 2289 tubes.

I built this and its in compliance with the laws. 2260 with a 14.5" Barrel. Legal because its a factory length barrel ( not a cut down ) and still over 26"

Image

If you don't like the rules. Then leave and don't make matters worst for air gunners. Call Canadian Mounted Police Canadian Firearms Program (CFP) at 1-800-731-4000 and ask to speak to a firearm technician to find out if the air gun is considered to be a firearm for purposes of the Firearms Act.

Or listen to Bob, that tried.

topic67184.html


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:47 am 
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Location: Meaford, Ont.
Had people ask me at gun club why I don't own any powder burning pistols. I spent over 15 years being treated like a criminal with the registry why would I want back on one. Anyone ever hear about any layoffs or people transferred to other deptments after long gun registry was removed?


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