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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:38 pm 
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Anyone hear anything new on this scheme? The basic premise as I understand it is it comes into effect this June and guesses are will increase the price per gun imported by about $200. Am I missing anything?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:42 pm 
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fishguy wrote:
Anyone hear anything new on this scheme? The basic premise as I understand it is it comes into effect this June and guesses are will increase the price per gun imported by about $200. Am I missing anything?


Highly doubt its going to increase any prices. I got a couple UN marked guns chinese imported guns. One I paid 550 the other 330$. Which is the going prices.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:30 pm 
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Location: Yukon
leadslinger wrote:
Highly doubt its going to increase any prices. I got a couple UN marked guns chinese imported guns. One I paid 550 the other 330$. Which is the going prices.


Were the markings done in Canada or in China? CA17 would mean imported to Canada in 2017

They are saying the high cost is after its laser engraved, they would need to refinish that area.

I don't think you are missing anything. Unfortunately, Canada wants to keep in the UN's good books


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:37 pm 
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offroad720 wrote:
leadslinger wrote:
Highly doubt its going to increase any prices. I got a couple UN marked guns chinese imported guns. One I paid 550 the other 330$. Which is the going prices.


Were the markings done in Canada or in China? CA17 would mean imported to Canada in 2017

They are saying the high cost is after its laser engraved, they would need to refinish that area.

I don't think you are missing anything. Unfortunately, Canada wants to keep in the UN's good books


Has to be done before entering the country. Engrave it before finishing.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:44 pm 
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Location: Yukon
I hope its as easy as you say.
I'm just going off what I read a few days ago.

http://www.csaaa.org/csaaa-update-canadian-firearms-marking-regulation/


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:23 am 
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Location: P.G. B.C.
This 'regulation' is as kinky as it gets.
for example

"The regulation requires that all firearms imported into Canada bear the name of the “manufacturer” and the firearm’ serial number and be marked with a country code and year of import, or “CA17” within 60 days of the firearm being released from customs or before being transferred beyond the importers.

A “manufacturer” in Canadian law is the actual manufacturing facility where the firearm was produced, not the responsible marketing and distributing company. So, for example, a firearm imported into Canada could not be marked by the brand “Browning” it would have to bear the name of the manufacturing plant where it was made."

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:03 pm 
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leadslinger wrote:
Has to be done before entering the country. Engrave it before finishing.



I don't know where you are getting that information. Everything I have read about this indicates that the engraving must be done AFTER the gun reaches Canada and is released from Customs. It's this fact that makes the whole process so expensive and frustrating. Not only does the packaging have to be opened by the dealer or Canadian distributor (think blister pack on Crosman guns for example), the gun engraved, and then repackaged somehow. The dies needed for the laser engraving are reported to cost BIG BUCKS (I've heard $10-30,000 which is really hard to believe) and that's supposedly besides the machine expense. If all this comes to pass the way it's reported, it explains why with the relatively small volume of airguns sold in Canada compared say to a .22 rimfire, it just wouldn't be economically feasible to sell those guns. This is why terrific companies such as SSSO are getting out of the business. And every make/model of gun needs a different die for the engraving.

This CANNOT be done by the manufacturer in advance (it would be ideal if it could) so it becomes a terrible burden for the Canadian dealer.

I have also heard (but cannot confirm) that this will affect private importations as well, meaning that you could not bring a gun into Canada legally which you buy in the US. And it's interesting that the US will NOT be adopting the UN Firearms Marking Convention.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:50 pm 
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Mtl_Biker wrote:
leadslinger wrote:
Has to be done before entering the country. Engrave it before finishing.



I don't know where you are getting that information. Everything I have read about this indicates that the engraving must be done AFTER the gun reaches Canada and is released from Customs. It's this fact that makes the whole process so expensive and frustrating. Not only does the packaging have to be opened by the dealer or Canadian distributor (think blister pack on Crosman guns for example), the gun engraved, and then repackaged somehow. The dies needed for the laser engraving are reported to cost BIG BUCKS (I've heard $10-30,000 which is really hard to believe) and that's supposedly besides the machine expense. If all this comes to pass the way it's reported, it explains why with the relatively small volume of airguns sold in Canada compared say to a .22 rimfire, it just wouldn't be economically feasible to sell those guns. This is why terrific companies such as SSSO are getting out of the business. And every make/model of gun needs a different die for the engraving.

This CANNOT be done by the manufacturer in advance (it would be ideal if it could) so it becomes a terrible burden for the Canadian dealer.

I have also heard (but cannot confirm) that this will affect private importations as well, meaning that you could not bring a gun into Canada legally which you buy in the US. And it's interesting that the US will NOT be adopting the UN Firearms Marking Convention.


Well even if it has to be done in Canada. The 200$ for " refinishing cost" is false. I got 2 firearms with UN markings and I also had Russian Mosin with import markings and no refinishing needed to be done.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:42 pm 
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Quote:
Marking of Manufactured Firearms
2 Every individual or business that manufactures a firearm shall ensure that the firearm is marked, at the time of manufacture, in accordance with section 4.
Marking of Imported Firearms
3 (1) Every individual, business or public service agency that imports a firearm shall ensure that the firearm is marked in accordance with section 4 before the 60th day after its release as defined in subsection 2(1) of the Customs Act or before transferring the firearm, whichever occurs first.


Maybe it's my naive or twisted reading of the legalese :? , but to me this says that the manufacturer marks the firearm with the intended country and year of sale. The importer, upon 'release' (I assume receipt of goods from customs), then has up to 60 days or prior to distribution, whichever is earlier, to verify that the firearms are marked correctly?

The full text of the bill can be found here: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2004-275/FullText.html


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:58 pm 
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leadslinger wrote:
Well even if it has to be done in Canada. The 200$ for " refinishing cost" is false. I got 2 firearms with UN markings and I also had Russian Mosin with import markings and no refinishing needed to be done.


Listen, I'm not here to argue and I really hope something changes before these new rules come into effect, but it's a very serious impact the rules would have if they are not changed. And I don't know what you mean by "refinishing" costs... I haven't seen such a thing talked about at all. What I have seen is that the cost for ENGRAVING, to meet the requirements would add a minimum of $200 per gun. (And I've seen estimates of over $300.)

Do the math: A CNC Laser engraving machine costs about $100,000. The apparatus to hold EACH make AND model of gun is about $3,000. That's for every model gun. Imagine if a small importer is wanting to bring in a dozen guns of a specific air rifle model. He may or may not be able to justify the $100,000 initial expense (depending on how many other guns he may be handling) but just take that $3,000 and divide it by the dozen guns of that model. That alone is $250 per gun!!! And that does NOT include the labour costs associated with doing this or the repackaging of the gun after the work has been done. How many Weihrauch HW97's do you think are imported into Canada every year? I would be very surprised if it's more than 50 between the two major Canadian sources. Are they going to want to stay in this business? How many of the most popular .22 rimfire rifles do you think are imported and sold in Canada in a year? I have no idea, but without any question in my mind it's LOTS MORE than of the airgun model. Let's say it's 500. That cost is now only $6 per gun. Quite a difference. I fear that the airgun industry in Canada is going to be hit VERY HARD by this.

Then consider the cheap Crosman pistols and rifles which have been selling for around $100. Often (most often?) they're in some kind of blister pack. The engraving must be done IN Canada, and only after the guns have been released from Customs. Those blister packs need to be opened, the guns engraved and somehow repackaged for resale. For these guns the quantities must be really very high and maybe there's only one importer for them in Canada, so it's possible that because of the higher volume there might not be as much of a price impact. But new packaging and the labour is going to make a hit.

I fear that our much more specialty guns, the kind that most of us here are interested in, are going to be hit much harder than the cheapies, and harder than the higher volume powder burning guns.

I sure hope that all this doom and gloom about our future isn't going to be realized when the rules come into effect.

Here's a link for some further reading on this: http://dennisryoung.ca/wp-content/uploa ... -and-2.pdf

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:05 pm 
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It seems the new requirement for markings does not require anything more than "Canada" (or "CA" in lieu of "Canada) and the year of manufacture. For example, a new firearm needs "CA2017" after June 1, 2017.

The markings can be made by the manufacturer at the time the firearm is made (and when stuff like serial number and make and model are stamped) or by the importer when it comes to Canada. (For details, see http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... 1.html#h-1)

Am I missing something?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:36 pm 
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Location: Montreal, Quebec
Penage Guy wrote:
It seems the new requirement for markings does not require anything more than "Canada" (or "CA" in lieu of "Canada) and the year of manufacture. For example, a new firearm needs "CA2017" after June 1, 2017.

The markings can be made by the manufacturer at the time the firearm is made (and when stuff like serial number and make and model are stamped) or by the importer when it comes to Canada. (For details, see http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... 1.html#h-1)

Am I missing something?


I think you are missing something. Everything I've read about this indicates that the marking must be done AFTER the gun arrives in Canada and is released by Customs. It cannot be marked by the manufacturer in another country prior to it having arrived in Canada. If it could be done at the time of manufacture it really wouldn't be a big deal, but it seems that isn't the case.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:57 pm 
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Mtl_Biker wrote:
Penage Guy wrote:
It seems the new requirement for markings does not require anything more than "Canada" (or "CA" in lieu of "Canada) and the year of manufacture. For example, a new firearm needs "CA2017" after June 1, 2017.

The markings can be made by the manufacturer at the time the firearm is made (and when stuff like serial number and make and model are stamped) or by the importer when it comes to Canada. (For details, see http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... 1.html#h-1)

Am I missing something?


I think you are missing something. Everything I've read about this indicates that the marking must be done AFTER the gun arrives in Canada and is released by Customs. It cannot be marked by the manufacturer in another country prior to it having arrived in Canada. If it could be done at the time of manufacture it really wouldn't be a big deal, but it seems that isn't the case.


The regulations say "2 Every individual or business that manufactures a firearm shall ensure that the firearm is marked, at the time of manufacture, in accordance with section 4."

"3 (1) Every individual, business or public service agency that imports a firearm shall ensure that the firearm is marked in accordance with section 4 before the 60th day after its release as defined in subsection 2(1) of the Customs Act or before transferring the firearm, whichever occurs first."

This doesn't prevent a firearm being marked by the manufacturer, does it? In other words, if a firearm, or a number of them, is produced for sale to/in Canada, the manufacturer would stamp "CA [and the year]" and ship them to Canada. What more would be required?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:45 pm 
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This seems logical.

Penage Guy wrote:
Mtl_Biker wrote:
Penage Guy wrote:
It seems the new requirement for markings does not require anything more than "Canada" (or "CA" in lieu of "Canada) and the year of manufacture. For example, a new firearm needs "CA2017" after June 1, 2017.

The markings can be made by the manufacturer at the time the firearm is made (and when stuff like serial number and make and model are stamped) or by the importer when it comes to Canada. (For details, see http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... 1.html#h-1)

Am I missing something?


I think you are missing something. Everything I've read about this indicates that the marking must be done AFTER the gun arrives in Canada and is released by Customs. It cannot be marked by the manufacturer in another country prior to it having arrived in Canada. If it could be done at the time of manufacture it really wouldn't be a big deal, but it seems that isn't the case.


The regulations say "2 Every individual or business that manufactures a firearm shall ensure that the firearm is marked, at the time of manufacture, in accordance with section 4."

"3 (1) Every individual, business or public service agency that imports a firearm shall ensure that the firearm is marked in accordance with section 4 before the 60th day after its release as defined in subsection 2(1) of the Customs Act or before transferring the firearm, whichever occurs first."

This doesn't prevent a firearm being marked by the manufacturer, does it? In other words, if a firearm, or a number of them, is produced for sale to/in Canada, the manufacturer would stamp "CA [and the year]" and ship them to Canada. What more would be required?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:52 am 
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Fishguy and Penage Guy...

I really hope you are correct, but that does not seem to be the case...

"Why can't the manufacturers apply the marking when the firearm is manufactured? Because Canada’s Bill C-10 Regulations
state precisely when those markings must be applied:

3. (1) Every individual, business or public service agency that imports a firearm shall ensure that the firearm is marked in
accordance with section 4 before the 60th day after its release as defined in subsection 2(1) of the Customs Act or before
transferring the firearm, whichever occurs first.

Further to this point is the spirit of the C-10A legislation. The UN Marking is intended to be an import mark, not an export mark.
If the manufacturer marks the firearm with the UN correct marking, it only serves to identify that the manufacturer intends to ship
the firearm to Canada, not that the firearm has actually been imported to Canada.

Firearms cannot be marked at the point of manufacture. Firearms can only be marked AFTER they are released from Canadian
Border Services Agency (CBSA) and they must be marked within 60 days of their release from CBSA.
There are many valid
reasons for this, but for Canadian gun owners it cannot be done at the cheapest point in the manufacturing process, at the gun
manufacturer’s facility. It must be done in a Canadian facility that, at this time, does not exist.
"

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