Canadian Airgun Forum

The #1 Community for Airguns in Canada!
It is currently Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:21 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours


The Canadian Airgun Forums are a place for people to discuss and learn about airguns and the airgunning sport in Canada. There are lots of discussions about airguns, airgun accessories, reviews, modification and repair information, airgun events, field target and free classifieds!

 

You need to register before you can post: click the register link to proceed. Before you register, please read the forum rules. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own pictures, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free! To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.








Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 1:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 5:55 am
Posts: 4
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
RE: Pellet Weight and Measuring FPS for PAL Compliance

So, just wondering . . . are there rules or specifications on the type and weight of pellets that the RCMP use when measuring FPS & Foot-Pound values on airguns? If you are moding/tuning an air gun and check it over your chronograph to ensure compliance, are you supposed to use the lightest pellet commercially available in the guns calibre? For .177 the most common pellet weight is about 8 grains, but you can find 5.6 grain weights (maybe even less?). For .22, common weight is around 14 grains, but I’ve seen super-fast pellets that are in the low 9 grains advertised.

The weight difference would make a difference in the FPS readings for the gun. You could choose to only shoot monster 25+ grain .22 pellets in your gun and check that it reads under 500 FPS; but that doesn't seem hardly right.

Thanks,


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 3:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:35 pm
Posts: 875
Location: North Of Toronto
I'd like to know too.

_________________
Benjamin Discovery .22
Discovery 2240 Pistol .22
Crosman DPMS SBR
KWC 1911 Tac
Leapers UTG BB 3x12x32


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 8:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:15 am
Posts: 3574
Location: Edmonton
Keep in mind one must exceed both fps and fpe limits to move into non-restricted PAL territory. Typically, as you increase pellet weight, muzzle velocity reduces somewhat proportionately, and, of course, reducing the pellet weight will increase muzzle velocity; however, the lighter pellet reduces the foot-pounds of energy (fpe) being delivered. There is nothing illegal bout a <500 rifle shooting over 500 fps, as long as the fpe remains below the limit. Arguably, then, a non-regulated rifle should be incapable of exceeding both limits, no matter what pellet you use (assuming, of course, the rifle is unmodded). For example, you can send a five-grain pellet downrange at 600 fps and be legal because the fpe result of four is below the limit.

Use this handy calculator for comparisons:
http://www.pyramydair.com/article/What_is_Muzzle_Energy_August_2003/5


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 8:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 10:16 pm
Posts: 61
Very interesting question. I had neither actually thought about a <500 FPS gun going over 500, but neither did I know that there were two requirements to make a pellet gun a non-restricted firearm. Good read for a little learning.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 9:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 5:55 am
Posts: 4
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Yes - I was aware that you have to exceed both limits (over 500 fps AND 4.2 foot/pounds). It is possible to have a lightweight .177 pellet go over 500 fps, but still be legal because the resulting foot-pounds of energy is below 4.2. However, with .22 this is not possible. I've used the calculators, and even with the lowest grain weight .22 pellet available (9 grains for example), even 501 fps exceeds the 4.2 foot-pounds. So basically, ANY .22 gun that shoots over 500 fps is going to be illegal.

My question - I guess more with .22 airguns, is do you have to use the lowest grain weight pellet available in your gun when chronographing it to check it is shooting below 500 fps? If you mod your .22 gun and find that it shoots standard 14 grain .22 pellets at 495 fps, is that perhaps still not legal? Since that same gun would shoot the lighter weight 9 grain .22 pellet over 500 fps - thus exceeding both fps and foot-pound limits. If the your gun were confiscated and tested by RCMP, what pellet weight would they use in their tests?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 9:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:06 pm
Posts: 840
Location: Meaford, Ont.
Keep it quiet and to yourself and who is going to know if it is a little over. Brag to all your buddies and word get around, then one could get in trouble and have it tested when the wrong person hears about it. :lol: :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 4:51 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:42 pm
Posts: 628
Location: Nova Scotia
My math is the shytes so I just went and got my PAL...lol

_________________
Image
eastcoastairgunner.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 6:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:23 am
Posts: 2776
Location: Somewheres near the Atlantic
Yeah PAL is much easier, then worrying about it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 7:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:56 pm
Posts: 462
Location: Tecumseh, Ontario in South Western Ontario
An 8g pellet will travel about 485 fps at 4.2fpe which is legally a non pal gun. If you want to shoot .22 as you say there is a 9g pellet that you can shoot at 460fps and stay legal.

_________________
Ed.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:41 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:52 am
Posts: 2926
Location: Caronport, Saskatchewan
It's a good question, however if the RCMP were really going to buy super light pellets to check your gun then they would basically be charging every pellet gun owner out there with a 495 fps rated gun. My Crosman 1322 pistol was shooting 460-470fps stock and 14.3 grains the so with lighter pellets it could sometimes be over, and then be considered rpal. So this would be a big headache for everyone if you had to buy a chronograph and further detune your gun just to be legal with light pellets. Most guys don't have chronographs so it seems silly to me that the vast majority of non pal pellet gunners are naively using pal guns. Hopefully the RCMP aren't that dumb, but if they are, they should have to start checking guns off the shelf and testing them as well and forcing shop owners to make everything pal rated.

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk

_________________
Website: https://airgunarcheryfun.ca/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 12:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:35 pm
Posts: 5998
Location: P.G. B.C.
If it says 495fps on the rifle or the box for that model of .22 rifle, that's all they need. It is a Non P.A.L. gun, for licensing reasons only.

However, if there was a criminal act committed with this 'non-P.A.L. gun', it would then become a firearm and they MAY do tests on it and if it indeed exceeded 500fps AND 4.2fpe, you would be ALSO charged with possession of a firearm without a license.

That extra investigation is ALL about stats, especially in "Training Detachments", as are in all large cities. The more stats the better - shows they are doing their jobs! Catching the criminals. I worked in a training detachment, I saw it. If they (or any Canadian police force) can charge you with multiple charges coming from what seems to be the same offense, they will - that is Canadian law. I do not know how they get away with what seems to be double jeopardy, but they do. Keep your nose clean,(obey the laws) and you will have NO problems.

_________________
Best Wishes
Daryl


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 1:40 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:52 am
Posts: 2926
Location: Caronport, Saskatchewan
Good advice!

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk

_________________
Website: https://airgunarcheryfun.ca/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 2:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:47 am
Posts: 711
Location: Bradford
Dyceman wrote:
Yes - I was aware that you have to exceed both limits (over 500 fps AND 4.2 foot/pounds). It is possible to have a lightweight .177 pellet go over 500 fps, but still be legal because the resulting foot-pounds of energy is below 4.2. However, with .22 this is not possible. I've used the calculators, and even with the lowest grain weight .22 pellet available (9 grains for example), even 501 fps exceeds the 4.2 foot-pounds. So basically, ANY .22 gun that shoots over 500 fps is going to be illegal.

My question - I guess more with .22 airguns, is do you have to use the lowest grain weight pellet available in your gun when chronographing it to check it is shooting below 500 fps? If you mod your .22 gun and find that it shoots standard 14 grain .22 pellets at 495 fps, is that perhaps still not legal? Since that same gun would shoot the lighter weight 9 grain .22 pellet over 500 fps - thus exceeding both fps and foot-pound limits. If the your gun were confiscated and tested by RCMP, what pellet weight would they use in their tests?



So basically, ANY .22 gun that shoots over 500 fps is going to be illegal.

So basically, ANY .22 gun that shoots over 500 fps is going to require a PAL.

Sounds so much better dont you think? :)

_________________
When the 425-hp "street Hemi" version hit the street in 1965, it was akin to taking an M230 chain gun to an arcade shooting gallery
Peter


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 3:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 5:55 am
Posts: 4
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Ha - more or less ITGUY. But the main reason for me posting the question is, shoots what at 500 fps? What if you have your .22 pellet pistol tuned to shoot consistently at 495 fps - using your average everyday 13 or 14 gr lead pellet. That same gun would shoot a lighter weight pellet over 500 fps. So is it legal or not?

Do you have to measure the FPS of your airgun with the lightest pellet available in your guns caliber? Or will the Feds measure it with their favourite light-weight pellet if it came to that? That is the question.

I have no doubt that for marketing purposes more than anything, when a manufacturer lists wording like "up to 495 fps" on their packaging, they are using the lightest pellet in that calibre, and if a CO2 gun, under ideal and very warm temperatures. I think for those moding their airguns to squeeze more power out of them, the advice would be to make sure that it does not shoot over 500 fps with the very lightest pellet that is available.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 9:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:15 am
Posts: 3574
Location: Edmonton
Let me reiterate what Daryl said, and what the law says. A rifle that is rated under 500 fps, and it has no mods, cannot possibly break the law, no matter what. "With what?" does not matter; the rifle is not capable of breaking both limits. Even if it does, the rating is the first line in investigation. Even if the RCMP has a secret 3.5 gr. pellet and actually test a <500 rated gun, it may shoot slightly over 500fps, but the fpe will be lacking. Your 495 fps rifle will never shoot 495 fps unless you find the same light, alloy, commercial pellet they used. They've covered your A$$ for you.

It's when you get into modding that you need to worry, and quite frankly, if you don't own a chrony and a pellet scale if you are tweaking for the max, then you're on a fool's errand. Having said that, many people who tweak have a PAL and know the other legal considerations one must keep in mind as well (barrel length, overall length, etc.).

So, bottom line: If you're not a PAL holder, you have a rifle that's shooting 410 fps with your favourite pellet, and you want to tweak for more, rest assured that you need a chrony, the formula I posted above, and the lightest pellet (in whatever calibre) on the commercial planet to ensure it won't exceed the two limits, no matter what the RCMP uses. Otherwise, you are following a fool's errand.

Otherwise, just shoot your non-pal rifle with whatever pellets you want, and have fun!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
News News Site map Site map SitemapIndex SitemapIndex RSS Feed RSS Feed Channel list Channel list

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group

phpBB SEO