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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:04 pm 
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X2 on Woody's comment, and ITGUY. Many clamps seem fine but some are sketchy so I hate to see it suggested then have someone use the sketchy type, and/or one that only releases completely which I imagine has surprised the hell outta someone somewhere... That blue one in the pix looks like it would be good, assuming strength and oal are good. The stroke on the screw looks kinda short so if doing a coil you may have to compress it by hand bit to get it into the compressor...

Doing it by hand I'd have most springs out in seconds. The first spring that was too strong to compress by hand took an extra 10min, which included figuring out how to do it with what I had on hand, make it/set it up and do it. Net cost $0, just some scrap wood.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:08 am 
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Chevota wrote:
Doing it by hand I'd have most springs out in seconds. The first spring that was too strong to compress by hand took an extra 10min, which included figuring out how to do it with what I had on hand, make it/set it up and do it. Net cost $0, just some scrap wood.


No mishaps?

I used to be more careless in the workshop, but various incidents has made me more careful. Not overly so, but I want to keep my fingers/teeth/eyes etc so that the fettling fun can continue.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:30 am 
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ITGUY wrote:
The biggest problem you will find with "inexpensive" clamps is deflection on the jaw face.

Know what you mean and a quick test using a 14" long metal bar shows that this is indeed a cheapo part. As seen in the design of this clamp the tightening rod is very close to the aluminum bar and it does seem flimsy. Pressure isn't evenly distributed on the entire surface. Suppose as long as I can keep the compression tube as close as possible to the aluminum bar that it should work. But I wouldn't trust compressing anything near the end of the clamp, as it does seem rather flimsy and not a tool I'd trust.

Heavy duty part this ain't. But hey, for $12 still seems like a suitable tool. Anyone that buys stuff at Princess Auto knows that a lot of what they sell is Chinese made junk and this clamp is no exception based on how lightweight it is and how the design seems more suitable for holding pieces of wood glued together gently more than anything else. But as many have reported, there doesn't seem to be a great deal of force required to compress most springs. I will however be adorning this clamp with pieces of tire tube rubber in order to prevent slippage (and plenty of ties). With some fiddling and much care, I'm sure this will work. Love the simplicity of Vestlenning's design. So much so that I also bought a nearly 3' long 1/4" threaded rod - also on sale at Princess Auto for whole buck fifty (along with plenty of nuts). Everything else I have, so for the grand investment of under $15 I should have a workable spring compressor.

I'm sure an experienced person would prefer to do it by hand and should eventually have the confidence to get there someday. But as a first timer I think it's wise to use a compressor. This still seems safer/easier than my initial idea of using a scissors jack and a door jam.

Will update this thread once I get this working and do a tune job. Now where did I put that $29 springer?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:02 pm 
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Many springs, or gas rams for that matter, do not have very much of a pre-load....some others do. I am most definitely NOT the nervous Nancy type, but I sure am cautious when disassembling a springer.

One trick is before you release the clamp, put a folded blanket over the tube and clamp area if you can. This will go a long way to reducing the velocity of any wayward part and has the added benefit of not letting said wayward part fly 20 feet across the room, never to be found again.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:25 pm 
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vestlenning: Never had a mishap doing by hand. Not sure I could even come close to one but I may be doing it differently that you might picture. Now what I've seen people doing with misc home made rigs and some wood clamps is a mishap in wait.
Doing it by hand t depends on the gun and person of course, but for me I wouldn't use a compressor unless I had to. Like the Nitro Crosman NPSS/RNP and full power NP2 springs have more preload than I weigh, so unless I strap on a backpack with bags o lead, I have to use my makeshift compressor (see pix), and the comp is super easy to use so I'll pass on the backpack thing ;)
The pix shows using a 4x4 but you can use a 2x4 as long as it's strong enough. I just didn't want to say 2x4 then have someone use a weak one, like with a knot and have it break. You don't have to use a truck bumper, that's just what I used. You can use anything strong enough that's safe. Like if you have exposed 2x4's in the garage you could attach another 2x4 between two beams and use that. You can do it sideways in a doorway but I'd try to find a vertical way. Putting it under the sink cabinet or edge of the counter top might look like a good idea but know the upwards force could exceed 300lbs. The risk I see is I think many will just sit on it with most of their weight which could be >1Klbs, so keep that in mind with whatever you use to pry against.

So I just sit on the board and I have both hands free to work the pin or whatever it has. If there's something sticking out, like the safety on a Diana, you just make a hole in the bottom board or let the safety hang over the edge of a board. If the guns guts are a bit recessed you can use a coin or whatever to press on the innards. I've used whatever to make a spacer, but I prefer a piece I made just for this which is simply a rubber cork that's cut in half so it basically looks like a mini hockey puck ~7/8" dia and ~1/2" thick. The rubber prevents any slipping and protects the gun and floor from damage. Usually I remove the barrel and press down on the breech end using a thick glove or folded up shirt to spare my hand, then put weight on that hand with my body centered over it. If you need two free hands then I suppose you could use a book instead of the hand but I hate to suggest it due to risk, just saying I've done it. Some guns like a B18 you can put the barrel at a 90 so you have more meat to push on.
If compressing lighter guns like a coil B18 I can put the breech end on the floor and compress the spring with my thumb. Lighter sprung 500fps versions would be even easier. So imo anyone should be able to compress a B18 or similar using body weight, but I do understand the concern if you've never done it. Many people have told me they went thru all this trouble to compress a generic coil gun, and once they did they were more or less disappointed with all that work for nothing. This is one more reason to use the simple wood lever deal b/c aside from the obvious advantages, it's no real loss in time or $ if you decide it's not needed. Can you imagine buying one like that $300 job in the link ITGUY posted, then find out your gun is super easy to do?
The Nitro guns are much harder to compress, even the weakest nitro (excluding leakers) is probably stronger than any coil.
I haven't used a scale yet but I think the normal Crosman B18 nitro is ~170lbs, the light one ~120. The NP2 seems ~230 and the light ~150. Plus there's stiction which with the higher pressure springs like the full power NP2 could add maybe another 50lbs to get it to break free. So even with the 170lb spring I often need to bounce on it b/c my weight of ~190 can't break the stiction. Once used and lubed that # drops, but a new never installed spring is the worst.
Typical coils are ~35lbs/inch, and typical preload is ~2" or less, so basically a fraction of a nitro. I'd imagine the strongest coil possible might be 70/in, if so I doubt there would even be room for more than 2" of preload. Some coil guns have less spring rate but more inches of preload, basically a weaker but longer spring. So fyi a coil gun may have up to ~5" of preload but odds are closer to 2. A gas/nitro spring will not have much preload, usually ~5mm +- a few (if you have less than 1mm I'd add some shim). Fyi so people know what to expect when the spring is being unloaded. With that wood lever setup it works out perfectly b/c a nitro is strong but short so closer to the pivot point has more leverage but less travel so it matches the gas spring. A coil needs much more travel so it needs to be further from the pivot, but being much weaker it matches the less leverage out there.
Of course if there's way to get hurt doing it by hand or with the lever dealie I imagine someone will, but imo, more people will get hurt using random wood clamps and other rigs. At least when doing it by hand or with that wood lever you have a feel for it and can judge if you're comfortable with it. If a wood clamp is not obviously good for the task then all you can really do it stand to the side and hope. One example of people not thinking it thru is pix I've seen using a threaded rod setup or whatever home made device on a gun while compressing on the muzzle end (barrel closed) and nothing holding it should the breech decide to open. Maybe they saw a pix of a side/under lever being done that way? I've also rec'd emails from people saying they were struggling until they realized the gun was cocked. I've also been asked if it needed to be cocked or uncocked. Point made; someone somewhere will do this, don't be that guy.... So lots of sketchy things going on, so however people go about it, just think it thru b/c it can seriously hurt you. If anyone is unsure just ask, preferably post pix of your setup too, or email me the pix.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:55 am 
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Chevota wrote:
vestlenning: Never had a mishap doing by hand. Not sure I could even come close to one but I may be doing it differently that you might picture. (...)


Though you just did things with your bare hands, doing it like you described is a different matter and what I would call using a simple spring compressor.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:45 am 
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vestlenning wrote:
Chevota wrote:
vestlenning: Never had a mishap doing by hand. Not sure I could even come close to one but I may be doing it differently that you might picture. (...)


Though you just did things with your bare hands, doing it like you described is a different matter and what I would call using a simple spring compressor.



I have been doing it by hand for almost 20 years. I have never understood why people over think this.
I have all of my teeth, all of my fingers. I also had more time and money for guns, because I didn't bother over thinking a spring compressor. I have done all guns listed by the original poster, never used a compressor.
When I started working on airguns I was about 140lbs., closer to 200 now. Never had a problem.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:52 am 
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Woody wrote:
I have been doing it by hand for almost 20 years. I have never understood why people over think this.
I have all of my teeth, all of my fingers. I also had more time and money for guns, because I didn't bother over thinking a spring compressor. I have done all guns listed by the original poster, never used a compressor.
When I started working on airguns I was about 140lbs., closer to 200 now. Never had a problem.


Good on you, but If others prefer to use simple tools then good on them as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:01 am 
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vestlenning wrote:

Good on you, but If others prefer to use simple tools then good on them as well.


The OP has been talking about compressors for over 2 years. If it's so simple, why are we still talking about it? I'm simply trying to say, just do it already. It's not rocket science. It's a spring, held in with a pin.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:33 am 
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Woody wrote:
The OP has been talking about compressors for over 2 years. If it's so simple, why are we still talking about it?

Isn't it funny how retirees are quick to forget that back in the day there was little time for hobbies?
Yes Woody, I have spent the last 2 years staring at a breakbarrel wondering how in the world I was going to open it up and terrified I'd lose an eye in the process - kinda hard to roll eyes when you only have one :roll:

:)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:21 pm 
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Joolz wrote:
Isn't it funny how retirees are quick to forget that back in the day there was little time for hobbies?
Yes Woody, I have spent the last 2 years staring at a breakbarrel wondering how in the world I was going to open it up and terrified I'd lose an eye in the process - kinda hard to roll eyes when you only have one :roll:

:)


I'm not retired, nor was I being a prick. I always try and chime in to say you don't need a compressor to work on guns. When I started with airguns I did it, too. You are a prime example who I was trying to help, 2 years!!

So in the last week you had time for this:

Joolz wrote:
24" bar clamp, currently on sale at Princess Auto, with around 18" or usable space. Would this work to assist in compressing springs in order to remove/add them to springers? If so, would the 2' long one be enough or do I need to go for the next size up? (3')
----
Cool, so these do work. Well, not the 24" one, by a long shot. Heck, even the 36" ones wouldn't work, seeing how the Slavia 630 is a beast measuring nearly 46" long. I need 32.25" of workable compression for this gun and the 36" bar only yields 30", according to Princess Auto's website. Guess this means getting a 48" long bar - or going with Peter's ingenious creation.

Due to simplicity and less storage space required, Vestlenning's idea fits my needs better. The 48" bar clamps are on sale for just $16 and change.
Was going to use a scissors jack for my first attempt at removing a spring but these seem a bit safer/more stable with less chance of surprises. Can't have a spring flying through the house with all those kids all over.

Vest, would you mind posting a couple of pics showing the wood detail? It looks like the first block (closer to the trigger end) to be thicker to accommadate that part of the gun but it's hard to tell from the pic. Have you had any mishaps or close calls with your setup?
----
Ouch. No thanks.
Not sure what fixed vs. non fixed barrel springers are. Would a fixed barrel be something like the under levers?
All my springers are the break barrel type (and after seeing how one can be mutilated by other styles, I'm sticking to break barrels).
Hard to tell from the pic which gun Vestlenning has in his compressor but you're saying that if it's a break barrel that it would be easier to remove the barrel prior to attempting to remove the spring? Guess it makes sense and that's what I thought was the procedure (till I saw his pic and got confused).

To clarify, I haven't yet gutted a springer so I'm new to the procedure. Maybe someone could clarify the size of the bar clamp I should buy based on my current needs?
Guns I have in the collection that I'd like to add liners to, perform a tune job using moly and replacing springs with more powerful ones are:

- Princess Auto $29 B1 (or B2 can't recall) cheapo that is a blast to shoot and a great test bed in case I mess things up in my first attempt.
- Crosman Phantom .22
- Ruger Air Hawk sub Pal that I want to make into a Pal by adding a full power spring
- Gamo 2100 Expo (your typical break barrel)
- Slavia 630
Other break barrel that I'm sure I have around the house but can't recall the model.

If all of the above can have the barrel easily removed and I can get away with the 2' long bar clamp, I'd like to get this size instead. Easier to store and overall easier to mess with.

PS: sale on these are on till June 11, for anyone interested.
----
Timely link, bookmarked. This will come handy when I take mine apart, thanks for this.
As seen in the post above, I do plan to work on other springers. But thanks for the tip on possible surprises not knowing what the PO may have done in terms of mods. Of course, will wait till I get some experience working on the cheapo guns before attempting the 630 but this is the one I'm most keen to get working, for obvious reasons.
----
Great, love the simplicity of it. Since these blocks are easy to make I can always experiment with different thicknesses (or just do as you say and add spacers as you have). Other than a couple of bucks for the long bolts, this is a very economical and quick build. Love it.

As per my post above, please clarify: which gun is in the compressor in your first pic? Looks like a break barrel but why did you not remove the barrel? Not questioing your choices, just trying to learn from those that have done it, since this will be my first attempt. As ITguy mentioned, if one was to remove the barrel he could get away with a shorter bar clamp.
----
Ok, this confirms that the 2' long clamp should work. Measured all of tubes in my springers, the longest one being 15". Will grab one this afternoon before they get sold out, which often happens at PA. Thanks for taking the pics. This is now one less hurdle out of the way before I open one up to play with.
----
Know what you mean and a quick test using a 14" long metal bar shows that this is indeed a cheapo part. As seen in the design of this clamp the tightening rod is very close to the aluminum bar and it does seem flimsy. Pressure isn't evenly distributed on the entire surface. Suppose as long as I can keep the compression tube as close as possible to the aluminum bar that it should work. But I wouldn't trust compressing anything near the end of the clamp, as it does seem rather flimsy and not a tool I'd trust.

Heavy duty part this ain't. But hey, for $12 still seems like a suitable tool. Anyone that buys stuff at Princess Auto knows that a lot of what they sell is Chinese made junk and this clamp is no exception based on how lightweight it is and how the design seems more suitable for holding pieces of wood glued together gently more than anything else. But as many have reported, there doesn't seem to be a great deal of force required to compress most springs. I will however be adorning this clamp with pieces of tire tube rubber in order to prevent slippage (and plenty of ties). With some fiddling and much care, I'm sure this will work. Love the simplicity of Vestlenning's design. So much so that I also bought a nearly 3' long 1/4" threaded rod - also on sale at Princess Auto for whole buck fifty (along with plenty of nuts). Everything else I have, so for the grand investment of under $15 I should have a workable spring compressor.

I'm sure an experienced person would prefer to do it by hand and should eventually have the confidence to get there someday. But as a first timer I think it's wise to use a compressor. This still seems safer/easier than my initial idea of using a scissors jack and a door jam.

Will update this thread once I get this working and do a tune job. Now where did I put that $29 springer?
----
Isn't it funny how retirees are quick to forget that back in the day there was little time for hobbies?
Yes Woody, I have spent the last 2 years staring at a breakbarrel wondering how in the world I was going to open it up and terrified I'd lose an eye in the process - kinda hard to roll eyes when you only have one :roll:

:)




But you didn’t have time to build a "simple tool", or use one of the other truly simple options suggesed in the post???

LESS TALK, MORE DO!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:26 pm 
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Woody wrote:
vestlenning wrote:
Chevota wrote:
vestlenning: Never had a mishap doing by hand. Not sure I could even come close to one but I may be doing it differently that you might picture. (...)


Though you just did things with your bare hands, doing it like you described is a different matter and what I would call using a simple spring compressor.



I have been doing it by hand for almost 20 years. I have never understood why people over think this.
I have all of my teeth, all of my fingers. I also had more time and money for guns, because I didn't bother over thinking a spring compressor. I have done all guns listed by the original poster, never used a compressor.
When I started working on airguns I was about 140lbs., closer to 200 now. Never had a problem.


And Its easier and safer with a spring compressor. Also less chances of messing up the gun. It might work fine for you, but not for other. Which isn't a huge deal.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:59 pm 
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leadslinger wrote:
And Its easier and safer with a spring compressor. Also less chances of messing up the gun. It might work fine for you, but not for other. Which isn't a huge deal.


Not a big deal at all. I just don't like to see people be intimidated and not do something because they feel they need a compressor. I don't know about easier, I could have a spring out and in again before you get your compressor set up.

If someone wants to sit on project for 2 years, and make excuses, that's their prerogative. I was just trying to help, sorry for that.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:42 am 
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Woody wrote:
I was just trying to help, sorry for that.

Hmm, posting a pic of a punch hardly meets that definition. Getting agitated cause no one else seems to agree with that idea makes it even less so.

Woody wrote:
I'm not retired, nor was I being a prick.

Really? Your contribution to this thread would suggest otherwise.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:14 pm 
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Joolz wrote:
Woody wrote:
I was just trying to help, sorry for that.

Hmm, posting a pic of a punch hardly meets that definition. Getting agitated cause no one else seems to agree with that idea makes it even less so.

Woody wrote:
I'm not retired, nor was I being a prick.

Really? Your contribution to this thread would suggest otherwise.

Joolz i think your barking up the wrong tree...show a little respect budz...if im not mistaken woody was like the 8th member to join the forum...he's been here a very long time... :wink:
and there was nothing wrong with his advise on the 630 it doesn't need a spring compressor there isn't much load on the spring on the 630's...

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