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 Post subject: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:13 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:36 pm
Posts: 66
Location: SE La., USA
I've read up on the construction and QC differences between the MIC P17 and the German Weihrauch P3 \ HW40. Machined vs stamped parts, higher quality barrels, better fit & finish and out-of-the-box lighter trigger pull seems pluses going for the much more expensive P3. Other than possibly better reliability, will the P3 out-shoot (better accuracy and repeat-ability) a good-working-order P17 (such as mine)? Well, looks like I'm going to answer the P3 vs P17 question myself! Have a P3 coming at a good deal (1\2 MSRP). Believe I've taken the P17 trigger accurizations as far as I dare, time to put these two superb paper cutters\plinkers side-by-side. Is one P3 worth "four to five P17's"...probably not. Then again, my optics birding\hunting arsenal (Swarovski & Zeiss) wasn't cheap either!! :shock:

Received the P3 on Saturday 21st. Overall, it is everything I expected. As others have said, the P3 has an excellent 2 stage trigger that once at the 2nd stg wall, takes less than 1\32" to break the glass...Nice! When I try to replicate that action with the P17's (OEM 2-stage), their 2nd stages have some creep to get a crisp breaking action. I can get close (2\32" & 3\32") by making them virtual single stage actions by setting the pre-travel\2nd stage sear screw all the way in (after my trigger mod, just one short steady trigger pull), but then I give up any desirable 1st stage pre-travel (okay with me)! The P3 overall has a better build, a better finish and a more solid feel in the hand. The machined stainless steel components (sears, springs, pins, hammer, cams, valve parts) and the steel trigger, safety and external over lever hammer lock parts should outlast the P17's DNA. :arrow:

So far, have about 200 rounds through the P3. Got the iron sights set and when I don't pull a round, can get a 5-shot group touching within about a .250 spread (see target groups 3,4,9,10,12,13). This appears a hair better than my P17 #2 with fiber optic sights (groups #16-20), as I usually create tight groupings with it. However my P17 #1, with a dialed in red dot reflex scope (groups #21-25) and its 13oz trigger nails <.250 groupings consistently! Will install the red dot reflex scope on the P3 to give it a "best shot" opportunity for accuracy! 8)

IMHO, if your wanting\needing the extra durability the P3 offers, or possibly the reliability\longevity it may bring, even though it appears at this time to be a relative equal in the accuracy department, then 4 to 5 times the investment (or more) certainly would be worth it! However, if you want\need to be frugal with your air gun investment, willing to put in the time and effort to tinker-repair-upgrade-mod a P17 (if\when needed), then this option is certainly also worth it! :wink:

Ted


Attachments:
Beeman P3 & P17 .177 Pellet Pistols.JPG
Beeman P3 & P17 .177 Pellet Pistols.JPG [ 376.22 KiB | Viewed 1289 times ]
Beeman P3(L) & P17(R)-Uncocked.JPG
Beeman P3(L) & P17(R)-Uncocked.JPG [ 336.67 KiB | Viewed 1289 times ]
Beeman P3-Iron Sights, P17 #2-Fiber Optic Sights, P17 #1-R. Dot Reflex Scope.JPG
Beeman P3-Iron Sights, P17 #2-Fiber Optic Sights, P17 #1-R. Dot Reflex Scope.JPG [ 409.68 KiB | Viewed 1289 times ]

_________________
RIFLE:
Benjamin Titan XS .177
PISTOLS:
Benjamin Trail NP .177
Umarex Trevox .177
Beeman P17 .177's (2)
Beeman P3 .177
Bear River BOA .177 (2)
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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:35 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:15 am
Posts: 3507
Location: Edmonton
Great analysis, Ted.

My answer always is, "Buy a P-17 and then decide." :wink:

Nice shooting, too!


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:23 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:25 am
Posts: 3432
Location: Ontario, Canada
Thanks for posting Theo. My P3 trigger is also sweeter than the P17. Last time I checked it released at a crisp 15oz. That makes it too light for official 10m competition (500g lower limit)

I did a "P3 vs P17" comparison over 7 years ago. Maybe I'll do the 20 yard accuracy testing again this winter to see if the P17 improves with further wear and different pellets. I might order some H&N ammo soon.
topic33212.html?hilit=Beeman

For fairness, it would be best to let the pistols decide their favourite diet. Try several pellet types in the P3. It might enjoy something other than the RWS Hobby. Mine likes the old Crosman Premier Lights but I haven't tried the newer lot numbers yet. The JSB Exact also shoot well in my P3.

At 10 metres, with red dot, my P3 was slightly more accurate than the P17 when comparing 9 groups each (.31" average vs .36" average).

At 20 yards with 9X scope my P3 averaged .53"ctc with 10 groups using CPLs. My P17 with 9X scope averaged .70" ctc with 20 groups using JSB Exact. I'll have to try some new CPLs to see how the P17 likes them. I gave up on this pellet when the QC went sour.

I wanted to do further testing with the P17 at 50 yards but the weather and my time never cooperated. The old posting is still worth reading for those who haven't seen it yet.
topic76922.html?hilit=beeman


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:58 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:36 pm
Posts: 66
Location: SE La., USA
TCooper wrote:
Thanks for posting Theo. My P3 trigger is also sweeter than the P17. Last time I checked it released at a crisp 15oz. That makes it too light for official 10m competition (500g lower limit)

I did a "P3 vs P17" comparison over 7 years ago. Maybe I'll do the 20 yard accuracy testing again this winter to see if the P17 improves with further wear and different pellets. I might order some H&N ammo soon.
topic33212.html?hilit=Beeman

For fairness, it would be best to let the pistols decide their favourite diet. Try several pellet types in the P3. It might enjoy something other than the RWS Hobby. Mine likes the old Crosman Premier Lights but I haven't tried the newer lot numbers yet. The JSB Exact also shoot well in my P3.

At 10 metres, with red dot, my P3 was slightly more accurate than the P17 when comparing 9 groups each (.31" average vs .36" average).

At 20 yards with 9X scope my P3 averaged .53"ctc with 10 groups using CPLs. My P17 with 9X scope averaged .70" ctc with 20 groups using JSB Exact. I'll have to try some new CPLs to see how the P17 likes them. I gave up on this pellet when the QC went sour.

I wanted to do further testing with the P17 at 50 yards but the weather and my time never cooperated. The old posting is still worth reading for those who haven't seen it yet.
topic76922.html?hilit=beeman


Todd,

Your two post, filled with great information, details and suggestions on the P17, are a Must Read for any owner...:!: Actually, your HW40 (P3) vs P17 thread in 2010 helped me to decide that when a good deal on the P3 rolled around, I'd pick one up (it did, and I did)! :D

Haven't yet, but will soon install my RioRand red dot reflex scope on the P3 and test it out. Have a feeling that just as you discovered, it will probably be slightly more accurate than my P17 #1. Believe that the P17 has the capability of sub .10" C to C accuracy with the right lead. The Hobby 7.0g WC's are getting me real close to that, but will take your suggestion and keep trying others with both the P17 & P3. :wink:

Thanks for your inputs and all of your assistance,

Ted

_________________
RIFLE:
Benjamin Titan XS .177
PISTOLS:
Benjamin Trail NP .177
Umarex Trevox .177
Beeman P17 .177's (2)
Beeman P3 .177
Bear River BOA .177 (2)


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:27 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:16 pm
Posts: 1233
Location: United States
Theo98 and TCooper:
My two (or maybe three) P17's have a rather loose bore which haunt me on any chinese bore I have. So I was wondering what your thoughts are on the two? If the German is tighter, and I assume it is, I think I may order one to see how it works. The barrels on my P17's seem to work fine, but they're on the outer edge of being too big, plus there's blowby so I simply want something better.


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:16 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:36 pm
Posts: 66
Location: SE La., USA
Chevota wrote:
Theo98 and TCooper:
My two (or maybe three) P17's have a rather loose bore which haunt me on any chinese bore I have. So I was wondering what your thoughts are on the two? If the German is tighter, and I assume it is, I think I may order one to see how it works. The barrels on my P17's seem to work fine, but they're on the outer edge of being too big, plus there's blowby so I simply want something better.


Chevota,

Actually to my surprise, my new P3 is 25-30fps slower than either of my P17's! :shock:

The tails of the RWS Hobby 7.0g wad cutters fit snugly at the end of being flush in my P17s. These same leads fit loosely in my new P3, almost like they might drop out if I invert the opened breach. :(

I'm going to have to find a better fit for the P3 breach\barrel in that similar weight pellet! :wink:

Ted

_________________
RIFLE:
Benjamin Titan XS .177
PISTOLS:
Benjamin Trail NP .177
Umarex Trevox .177
Beeman P17 .177's (2)
Beeman P3 .177
Bear River BOA .177 (2)


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:48 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:25 am
Posts: 3432
Location: Ontario, Canada
I just finished running a selection of pellets through my P3 and P17. Unfortunately my pistols are far from new so possibly they can't be compared to newer inventory. My P3 was purchased in March 1999 and may have been from the first shipment to the USA (from Airgun Express). My P17 was purchased in early 2010.

The barrels on my P3 and P17 seem to be almost identical for fit at the breach end. All three pellets tested were press fit for all shots. I shot a few more after the testing and had the same results. I have tested 4.52mm JSB Exact 8.44gr and a good batch are a press fit. A bad lot is sloppy and some pellets will drop in the barrel up to the skirt. My one tin of 7.33gr JSB Exact are also a sloppy fit in these barrels.

P17
Hobby - 418, 417, 419 fps - press fit for last half of pellet
CPHP - 395, 395, 393 fps - press fit for half pellet
H&N Sport - 392, 395, 396 fps - press fit for most of pellet length

P3
Hobby - 406, 410, 404 fps - press fit for last half of pellet
CPHP - 386, 385, 387 fps - press fit for half pellet
H&N Sport - 384, 384, 387 fps - press fit for most of pellet length

The H&N Sports were slightly tighter than the CPHP and Hobby. A small sample measured .177 to .178 at the head and .182 to .183 at the skirt.

My P17 has always been a bit faster than my P3. I have never measured the compression stroke length but possibly they are slightly different. The small velocity difference isn't something to be concerned about. Top speed numbers are usually achieved with fresh o-rings, fresh lube and a good fitting pellet. A slightly harder valve stem seal might help too but I wouldn't bother.

If I had a loose bore I would experiment with different pellets. The current CPL is known to be a bit on the fat side (4.54-4.55mm heads).


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:57 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:48 am
Posts: 1041
Location: WMU 73, Ontario
My Marksman 2004 (same as P17) hasn't skipped a beat since I first got it back in 2004. How's that for reliability? :D

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FX Streamline .22, Benjamin Discovery .22, Weihrauch HW30 .177, Webley Alecto .22, Weihrauch HW40, Beretta PX4, Crosman 22XX .22, Colt Peacemaker BB, Beeman P17, Gamo 45


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:52 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:35 pm
Posts: 5884
Location: P.G. B.C.
Those groups are cool & inspiring, particularly the bottom row! I might have to buy a P17 just for plinking down here (basement) - Hmmmm. Might be fun on really close rats, too.

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Best Wishes
Daryl


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:34 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:06 pm
Posts: 820
Location: Meaford, Ont.
Daryl wrote:
Those groups are cool & inspiring, particularly the bottom row! I might have to buy a P17 just for plinking down here (basement) - Hmmmm. Might be fun on really close rats, too.

I liked my first one so much, I bought a second. Same red dots on both. All my other pistols are decorations now. :lol: The red dots that come with the package are garbage. I run "RioRand Tactical 4 Reticle Red and Green Dot Open Reflex Sight for 11mm Weaver-Picatinny Rail Mount". Five light settings so you don't over power the target with glare. Twenty nine dollars from Amazon. But very good with open sights as well. CHEERS!


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:42 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:16 pm
Posts: 1233
Location: United States
Thanks for the info TCooper, but now I'm disappointed :( Oh well... It still shoots fine but I was hoping to get a sweet barrel for it/them. Wish I had a lathe b/c I've been dying to put a Lothar barrel on it and some others. Meaning buy a long barrel blank then cut/lathe to size.
Have you considered modding either to bump power? I think I posted somewhere in here what I did, but if not I can send it to you or post the pix here.

Daryl: I consider the P17 to be a must have item for any gun collection.
I put off buying one for ages b/c I figured how good could it be for that $, but it's totally worth it and it pretty much replaced my Webley Tempest as my fav pistol. I also modded it of course :)
If you (anyone) want, I have info and pix for what I did to fix the common flaws, plus some upgrades to it like the trigger and of course power. I also made the chrome parts black which looks way better, imo...


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:29 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:25 am
Posts: 343
Location: Canada
Chevota,
Yes please post your trigger and power mod info or links.
I'm thinking on picking up the P-17.

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Tazz


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:57 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:36 pm
Posts: 66
Location: SE La., USA
Chevota wrote:
I also modded it of course. :) If you (anyone) want, I have info and pix for what I did to fix the common flaws, plus some upgrades to it like the trigger and of course power


Chevota,

It would be very interesting to check out your trigger and power mods to the P17. I've performed trigger work to both my P17's (see HERE & post #25). Actually, created single stage pulls that break like glass at just 1\16" travel. However, not going to perform any mods to my new P3 as the 2-stage trigger is really sweet! :wink:

Curious how you may have obtained more power (more fps?) without going to a replacement longer barrel?! :?

Any info and pics would be appreciated!

Ted

_________________
RIFLE:
Benjamin Titan XS .177
PISTOLS:
Benjamin Trail NP .177
Umarex Trevox .177
Beeman P17 .177's (2)
Beeman P3 .177
Bear River BOA .177 (2)


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:53 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:25 am
Posts: 3432
Location: Ontario, Canada
Chevota wrote:
Thanks for the info TCooper, but now I'm disappointed :( Oh well... It still shoots fine but I was hoping to get a sweet barrel for it/them. Wish I had a lathe b/c I've been dying to put a Lothar barrel on it and some others. Meaning buy a long barrel blank then cut/lathe to size.
Have you considered modding either to bump power? I think I posted somewhere in here what I did, but if not I can send it to you or post the pix here.


I tinkered with an adjustable piston that Rick gave me. Max was 400fps with 7.9gr CPHP.
topic75131.html?hilit=adjustable piston

I would be interested in hearing other ways to maximize power. Increasing stress on the synthetic frame isn't such a good idea. A longer barrel would be nice and I have also thought about a longer LW quality barrel.

I can't remember the originator but have seen postings about cutting a shallow slot across the piston face to allow wasted air to contribute. Shimming the piston seal might help a bit too. I often shim the breach seal. I have tried quad seals on the breach without any gains.


Last edited by TCooper on Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:25 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:25 am
Posts: 3432
Location: Ontario, Canada
The Beeman P17 Magnum is something that might interest a few members. It has a little more length than the original P17 and shoots right at 495fps. Cocking effort isn't much more, due to the added frame length. The metal frame inserts are a bit thicker to take the extra stress. The price is only about 25% more than the original. The improved adjustable 2-stage trigger is also very sweet (similar to P3). The Beeman P17 Magnum Elite is the exact same pistol with a Lothar Walther barrel at a little more cost. Apparently a .22cal Magnum version is coming out in early 2018.


Attachments:
P17 Magnum 007.jpg
P17 Magnum 007.jpg [ 256.59 KiB | Viewed 858 times ]


Last edited by TCooper on Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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