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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:43 pm 
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Posts: 1667
Location: GTA, ON
Asked Kelley (D&L) regarding the Abbey grease and the oil. However he (uhh...no offence I thought Kelley was a lady...) think it would be better to get a direct answer from the manufacture of the gun for the PM needs. But I didn't get the reply from Beeman yet after sending them an email a day ago.

And I can't wait to disassemble my P17 already as I noticed occasionally I got one shot seems has much less fps from the sound that pellet left the muzzle and hit the target. Plus I also noticed many scratch marks on the piston body. I think I need to do some deblurring job on the piston and the tube inner wall ?!

It's much easier than I thought to disassemble everything. No need to use a hammer as the video showed. After loosed the end screw, the pivot pin can be removed by a light push with the finger tip.

But I don't have any lube for it and I just use some Pellgunoil (which should be the safe thing agreed by Kelley too). And it looks I must use something more thicker, like grease not oil for the piston for a better sealing job because I noticed some leaking there after I assembled the gun as the fps dropped.

I am going to get the Abbey silicone grease then if I still not getting the reply from Beeman... any other suggestion or idea ?!

Attached the piston with the scratch marks ...

Just wondering if there is better or much better on the P3 piston ?!Image

Sent from my LG mobile

_________________
Izzy 46M
HW30 Stainless Steel + Discovery 40mm Scope
HW35 Walnut + Hawke 40mm Scope
2240+14" barrel/Williams peep sight
Camo Chaser long barrel rifle kit
P3+2x20 Kit Scope
HW40+Extender
HW45+Grip panels from Russia
P1322 with walnut forearm


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:44 am
Posts: 356
Location: Interior BC
Wow ! Image
Yes you need to address that for sure. Light sanding 800 grit then 1500 grit sand paper. Then you need to pick yourself up some of this.
It is Magic !!!
Autosol Metal Polish
Remember it is not the piston that is sealing the compressed air..it is the Oring. The Oring needs a light lubricant (Pellgunoil) in the chamber to provide a proper seal.
The piston is there to support the Oring. But the piston needs lubrication too. That is where a grease could be used. Think of it like a car piston and cylinder.


Last edited by HuskyDude on Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:42 pm 
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Location: GTA, ON
I used 800 then 1000 last night on the piston. Then same on the tube this morning. But no metal polish thing.

Is that the leaking caused by without using 1500 sand paper (i have it and will redo the job tonight if have time) and the polishing ?!

And I thing the piston and tube in the P17 is aluminum ?! It's light weight and very easy to sand (not include the mark on the picture, it's already too deep and I didn't dare to sand it too hard) and black color dust showed up just like I did the preparation job on my bicycle before painting while I was in high school...

And the P3 description said the P3 is steel parts inside....

Sent from my LG mobile

_________________
Izzy 46M
HW30 Stainless Steel + Discovery 40mm Scope
HW35 Walnut + Hawke 40mm Scope
2240+14" barrel/Williams peep sight
Camo Chaser long barrel rifle kit
P3+2x20 Kit Scope
HW40+Extender
HW45+Grip panels from Russia
P1322 with walnut forearm


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:48 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:44 am
Posts: 356
Location: Interior BC
Lightly on sanding !!! You don't want to take off too much material. The scratches on the piston are behind the oring and have nothing to do with the seal.
The scratches on the piston are being made from the very inside edge of the cylinder where the piston is rubbing on it through it's full stroke while pumping.
You want that inside edge of the cylinder to look like the mouth of a glass beer bottle with no sharp edges. If that makes any since.
Image


Last edited by HuskyDude on Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:02 pm 
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Location: GTA, ON
HuskyDude wrote:
Lightly on sanding !!! You don't want to take off too much material off. The scratches on the piston are behind the oring and have nothing to do with the seal.
Yeah... I used one finger and move the sand paper round and round and stopped then check if I can still feel the marks. .. I left the deep marks all already. ..

And u r right, the marks are all behind the seal ring, so I did some sanding on the opening of the tube and the air intake hole. I doubt the marks are caused by the flashings on the metal works.

You think I might sand too much ? Will this cause leaking ?

Sent from my LG mobile

_________________
Izzy 46M
HW30 Stainless Steel + Discovery 40mm Scope
HW35 Walnut + Hawke 40mm Scope
2240+14" barrel/Williams peep sight
Camo Chaser long barrel rifle kit
P3+2x20 Kit Scope
HW40+Extender
HW45+Grip panels from Russia
P1322 with walnut forearm


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:17 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:44 am
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Location: Interior BC
YepYep wrote:
HuskyDude wrote:
You think I might sand too much ? Will this cause leaking ?

Without seeing you P17 and checking the inside cylinder it is hard to say. Check Oring.
If the scratches on the piston scratched the inside of the cylinder where the O ring is sliding.
Then the damage is already done. That is why it is very important to disassemble before you even pump it once.
Remember this is a $50 P17...not a $300 P3 which has a higher quality control right from the factory.


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:25 pm 
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Location: GTA, ON
The o ring is fine. Didn't see anything on it.

And actually I just found one wholesaler in my area and got some spare rings in my hand already and I just tried a new ring on it and seems have the same issue.

I think after I smoothed the marks and the flashings actually paved the tunnel for the air to leak from the deeper marks while I push down the overlever?!

And before the job, the flashings actually acted like a door to seal the air although it also scratching the piston when you open and closing the lever....

Maybe I just screwed up this gun already then... and YES, this job should be done before the first shot you made through the P17. That can save you 250 bucks as you will be your own QC for not buying the P3 if the material of these two guns are same. At least you can save 50 for another P17~ right ?

But the first question is still not being answered... if the grease will seal the air better then using the oil on the piston and the ring ?!

Sent from my LG mobile

_________________
Izzy 46M
HW30 Stainless Steel + Discovery 40mm Scope
HW35 Walnut + Hawke 40mm Scope
2240+14" barrel/Williams peep sight
Camo Chaser long barrel rifle kit
P3+2x20 Kit Scope
HW40+Extender
HW45+Grip panels from Russia
P1322 with walnut forearm


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:20 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:44 am
Posts: 356
Location: Interior BC
Remember there are other Orings that might be causing you grief like the valve stem O ring. A little harder to get at... (But this is a brand new gun Right)?
As far as grease over silicone Oil....I would stick with an Oil...but a light viscosity grease I think would be Okay as long as it's not a paste.
Remember the Oring has to float freely in the piston oring channel and seal on both sides of the piston channel wall and the cylinder on different strokes for a proper seal.
(Figure 1-5)
One side of channel on up stroke the other side of channel on the down stroke.
That's why it is very important to have a proper sized oring.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:12 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:25 am
Posts: 3432
Location: Ontario, Canada
YepYep wrote:
But the first question is still not being answered... if the grease will seal the air better then using the oil on the piston and the ring ?!



On the previous page I quoted what Beeman recommends for the P3 and P17 in their manuals that come with each pistol. Beeman recommends "joint grease" for the P17 and "Feinwerkbau joint grease" for the P3. I'm not sure why they stated the FWB brand for one and not the other. I would go with Pellgun Oil (30W-ND oil) as recommended by Daisy and Crosman. It has worked fine for my P3 for over 18 years. Oil works great to lubricate o-rings.


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:32 pm 
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Posts: 3432
Location: Ontario, Canada
The piston body shows you where the burr is located. There doesn't appear to be any scratches within 1/2" of the seal. The burr was around the lip of the compression tube. You just needed to lightly round over the edge. Your extra polishing probably didn't hurt anything. In worse case you can shim the seal but it's likely fine.

As was mentioned, I would look at the valve seal if the problem doesn't go away after a couple hundred shots.


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:58 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:01 pm
Posts: 1667
Location: GTA, ON
But I was just told that weihrauch recommends use NO oil or grease on their guns (i.e. HW40)

I am waiting for another answer regarding how to take care of their guns then...


Sent from my LG mobile

_________________
Izzy 46M
HW30 Stainless Steel + Discovery 40mm Scope
HW35 Walnut + Hawke 40mm Scope
2240+14" barrel/Williams peep sight
Camo Chaser long barrel rifle kit
P3+2x20 Kit Scope
HW40+Extender
HW45+Grip panels from Russia
P1322 with walnut forearm


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:34 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:25 am
Posts: 3432
Location: Ontario, Canada
YepYep wrote:
But I was just told that weihrauch recommends use NO oil or grease on their guns (i.e. HW40)

I am waiting for another answer regarding how to take care of their guns then...


Sent from my LG mobile


That's interesting, since they print in their manuals to use a grease. Metal-to-metal contact or rubber-to-metal contact can create wear that can be minimalized with friction reducing lubricants. Moving rubber o-rings will last longer with proper lubes. The oil lube also helps slightly swell the rubber for a good fit. It will also fill in micro gaps between the rubber and metal compression tube. It acts as a type of membrane on the seal and helps slow down the drying out of the rubber. When rubber dries out it shrinks, gets stiff and doesn't work as well. We hear many examples where a seal starts to "work" again when proper lube is applied.

My best example is still my own P3 that I bought in March 1999 when they first became available in the USA. I'm guessing my P3 was from the first shipment to the old Airgun Express dealer (bought out by Pyramyd Air). I was getting catalogues from them and ordered two P3 pistols when they first appeared.

My P3 has seen about 25,000 shots and a few piston seals. The piston seal has never "failed" and leaked. I change it when I notice a velocity loss (have chronograph). The velocity decrease is small (maybe 10-15 fps) and stays consistent. After changing the o-ring I get the velocity back immediately. The old seal usually has a slight lightening of the colour around the perimeter and does not have that fresh look like the new one I install. Pellgun Oil will never harm your P3-17 but it will reduce friction so I will continue using it. I'm sure I could shoot a dry piston but seals wouldn't likely last as long.

I have changed a lot more breach seals on my P3 and P17 than piston seals. The breach seals get ticked if you don't seat the pellets well. When quickly blasting cans it's easy to accidentally leave a pellet sticking out a tiny amount and nick a seal. Also, the barrel creates some wear on the seal and lube doesn't seem to stick as well with this type of friction (lube not trapped like in cylinder).


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:59 pm 
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Posts: 758
Location: Toronto
Yikes! Sooooo many replies and views on the ongoing comparison of the P3/HW40 and P17. Probably more forum activity on this than most other airguns over the years. This level of discussion is fine since we all get some gems of advice on the maintenance issues.

I may have said this before- if I could only hold onto one pistol for its long lasting flawless function and accuracy, it would be the HW40.


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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:27 pm 
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cant believe people are still discussing lubes for O-rings
its very simple if you want a very good O=ring lube... Dow 33
if you want a lube to swell the O-rings... Dow 55 that's it...
you can try others they may help somewhat but
only because your not letting the oring go dry
the best is the ones I mentioned above... :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Beeman P3 vs P17?!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:59 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:01 pm
Posts: 1667
Location: GTA, ON
TCooper wrote:
YepYep wrote:
But I was just told that weihrauch recommends use NO oil or grease on their guns (i.e. HW40)

I am waiting for another answer regarding how to take care of their guns then...


Sent from my LG mobile


That's interesting, since they print in their manuals to use a grease. Metal-to-metal contact or rubber-to-metal contact can create wear that can be minimalized with friction reducing lubricants. Moving rubber o-rings will last longer with proper lubes. The oil lube also helps slightly swell the rubber for a good fit. It will also fill in micro gaps between the rubber and metal compression tube. It acts as a type of membrane on the seal and helps slow down the drying out of the rubber. When rubber dries out it shrinks, gets stiff and doesn't work as well. We hear many examples where a seal starts to "work" again when proper lube is applied.

My best example is still my own P3 that I bought in March 1999 when they first became available in the USA. I'm guessing my P3 was from the first shipment to the old Airgun Express dealer (bought out by Pyramyd Air). I was getting catalogues from them and ordered two P3 pistols when they first appeared.

My P3 has seen about 25,000 shots and a few piston seals. The piston seal has never "failed" and leaked. I change it when I notice a velocity loss (have chronograph). The velocity decrease is small (maybe 10-15 fps) and stays consistent. After changing the o-ring I get the velocity back immediately. The old seal usually has a slight lightening of the colour around the perimeter and does not have that fresh look like the new one I install. Pellgun Oil will never harm your P3-17 but it will reduce friction so I will continue using it. I'm sure I could shoot a dry piston but seals wouldn't likely last as long.

I have changed a lot more breach seals on my P3 and P17 than piston seals. The breach seals get ticked if you don't seat the pellets well. When quickly blasting cans it's easy to accidentally leave a pellet sticking out a tiny amount and nick a seal. Also, the barrel creates some wear on the seal and lube doesn't seem to stick as well with this type of friction (lube not trapped like in cylinder).
The most best hands on knowledge are fron the real owners~ Thanks for the share comes since before the Millennium~

I didn't get any reply from Beeman's help support yet.

But I finally ordered one HW40 from D&L!

it's very impressive that I never see any bad reviews of the P3 / HW40. And I also find myself like this simple design. And the accuracy from my short life P17 also surprised me so much and very easy to obtain from the recoil-less pistol. (I might be too old to keep on looking for challenges like a springer)

Let me see the difference of the German craftsmanship!

Sent from my LG mobile

_________________
Izzy 46M
HW30 Stainless Steel + Discovery 40mm Scope
HW35 Walnut + Hawke 40mm Scope
2240+14" barrel/Williams peep sight
Camo Chaser long barrel rifle kit
P3+2x20 Kit Scope
HW40+Extender
HW45+Grip panels from Russia
P1322 with walnut forearm


Top
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