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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:28 pm 
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Location: P.G. B.C.
Instinctive shooting is what I taught my squads at the correction centre. We's use instinctive shooting right to 25 yards (handguns), on the 'metal man' -

our full sized grease covered target.

New guys were amazed when they got their groups down in the 3" to 4" range, right in the centre of mass. All it takes is practice & a bit of instruction.

I started off in archery 4 decades ago with a longbow, but after years of that, the tendenitis was unrelenting and I had to stop with the sticks and string. I went to recurve,

which was a bit better, but still elbow problems. I switched to compounds - in full force - all of it including scope, magnifyers, trick releases, you name it. When I could not afford

to continue wrecking arrows (robinhoods and slapping them together, even at distance), I started taking off the crap - down to peep and pins, short stab and fingers,

then all sights gone and just a plastic blade rest with short stab. Got some trophys with that, shooting \instinctive - was easy and still is. With only a few shots, right back in the groove

even with a couple years or so since I shot last - it comes back quickly, with the compound. Not so much with the long bow, which I only shoot now at the BP rendezvous in the

primitive archery silhouette contest. I have a nice 'character' yew longbow I shoot quite poorly, lol, but it is fun. The compound is VERY easy to shoot instinctively - amazingly so.

When shooting in the club, I was shooting 275 to 280 for the year's average. That is average over the year, out of 300 possible points. Indoors, of course. Shot many 30's, even quite

a few Robinhoods over the years. Instinctive with a compound is really easy- and fast, almost as fast as a longbow or recurve. I slant the bow just as if shooting a longbow and use 3

fingers under the arrow, which brings the arrow really close under your eye. Within a few shots, where you look, is where the arrow hits.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:18 pm 
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Yeah, Robinhood... First arrow hit the bullseye then the second arrow cut the first one into half from the end to the head and hit the same spot on the bullseye, right?

I never used a real bow. But I think when using a bow, we can use the arrow to aim, like you said point to where the arrow will hit there, right? So it's some kind of 'sight'. You will be aiming your target using that.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:53 pm 
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Location: Interior BC
mangerover wrote:
ps Lars is a hoax and a joke :P

Agreed Image
His believes on how Archery evolved through out history and how he is the only one that has rediscovered it might be a joke....
But what I was referring to was his ability to shoot his bow...and show muscle memory. Not his believes...shouldn't read into it more than what was posted...just say'n. Image


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:45 pm 
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Yes - Lars is a VERY good shot with his light little bow. He is also a showman.

A Robinhood is indeed, for us, an arrow hitting the very centre of the crimped in aluminum arrow shaft end, under the nock, with the point of the another arrow & yes - they do not count unless they are both 10's, preferably in the exact centre of the gold. The spot, that is, the hole you have to hit, is perhaps 1/32" in diameter.

Under the plastic nock or knock used in modern archery, the aluminum shaft is crimped to form an angle that fits the inside angle of the nock perfectly. More modern arrows are carbon which has no crimped end and uses nocks that fit inside the shaft. Thus the nock end of the shaft has a hole to hit, much easier than the point of a crimped aluminum shaft. They are also much more expensive to replace and are quite dangerous as shards of carbon fiber will be flying everywhere. I will not use them, nor shoot with people who do. I also will not use them for hunting as I do not relish eating carbon fibers, which will slice up your guts.

We (older shooters of aluminum shafts) have a lot of shafts in the bin, still usable, but with little gouges taken off the pointed, angled aluminum from "almost Robinhoods". Had those shafts had a hole, instead of a point underneath the nock, they'd have all been Robinhoods. A Robinhood ruins at least one shaft. Money down the drain.

I still use aluminum shafts - 2315's to be exact, and with 145gr. field points or broadheads, come to about 550gr. weight.

Some people use the arrow point as an aiming point, like a front sight. These people are called gap-shooters as at different ranges, they have to have various 'gaps' between the point and the intended target. Thus, they have to know the distance to the target so they can use the exact gap to hit.

Instinctive shooters do not use the point of the arrow as an aiming device, rather draw the bow string back to a standard 'anchor point', look at - concentrate on the spot to hit, then release and if a good hold and release, hit that spot. It is muscle memory, I guess, all of it.

When instinctive shooting you must be able to concentrate on the precise spot you want to hit. Aim at a box and you might hit it, but aim at a spot on the box and you will most certainly hit the box and come very close to that 'spot', depending on how good you are with that bow.

We tested this in my brother's back yard, with a reflective surface of small plastic circle on his compressed donna-conna target butt. the ambient light showed black all around, only the faint glimmer of the white circle. It wasn't even bright, but was all we could see in the black. We both hit it at 25 yards with our long bows, several times in a row - every shot. I could NEVER hit it in the day time at 25 yards, but sometimes at 20yards. Too much to look at, I guess. I was never very good with the longbow, except for when stump shooting - that was different, for some reason.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:32 pm 
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Location: Montreal
A good read for airgun enthusiast about instinctive shooting.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/10/instinct-shooting-with-a-bb-gun-part-1/
Why couldn't it be done with a gun? People do it with baseballs, hockey pucks, tennis balls and pretty much every other sport where you're trowing something with or without a racket or other tool. You're not using sights.
When you're walking down the street if there's poo, you don't need to look at it 'till the last second, you'll be able to avoid stepping in it cause your brain has been using your eyes and feet since you were born. Samething with steps, you don't need to look at them yet your foot will pass only a few mm above each step without you even thinking about it (and that's why you trip if there even a very slight imperfection in a step).
Practice does make perfect.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:01 am 
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When starting with instinctive shooting training, we use the finger pointing skill. Even a 3 year old can point his finger (girls take longer) lol - just kidding, where was I - oh yeah can point his or her finger to within 1/16" accuracy at 20 feet. Go figure. This was proven by attaching laser pointers to fingers. We teach/taught the finger pointing exerciser, then transfer that thought and practice to the trigger finger outside the guard, then the barrel being the finger while squeezing the trigger. Surprisingly, with some practice, it works & works well. We never let them shoot single action, only double action, which teaches proper trigger control with a DA revolver. We used model 10 S&W 6" bl. fixed sights, of course, and factory 158gr. SWC's.

One of the lads just couldn't 'see' it (moslty his disdain for the .38's feeble power level). I figured this, and told him to bring his 8 3/8" .44 mag next day of training. He did and within the lunch "hour" of one on one training, he was pasting 3" groups at 25 yards, double action shooting, with the gun held below his shoulders, just "looking" (concentrating) on the shirt button (visualized) of the metal man. He noted, if I hadn't done it, I wouldn't have believed it, still don't but it works. This sort of training does promote fixation on a single object, but within our 'situations', tha ti snot a bad thing, hits in the COM (centre of mass) are.
He was a tough sell.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:18 am 
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Doc - that reminded me of my bro's Slavia back in 1958 through about 65/6 or so. We'd lost the sights, who knows what happened to them lol - I surely don't recall.

Whenever my aunt and uncle (S/SGT RCMPolice at that time) came to visit form London, we'd get out Taylor's air rifle and shoot at beer bottle caps placed in cracks and crevices in the barn window.
Sitting some 15 yards, away (maybe 10?), Taylor and I never missed. The adults could not hit them. (they'd also been drinking) They would attempt to see how we were "Aiming" but we weren't. Uncle Lou kept asking , "How are you aiming, down the side of the barrel?" We didn't know, just looked at the bottle caps and they'd pink-into the barn at the shot. Funny thing was that rifle had a horrid barrel droop, & it might even have been bent. We'd just say, we point at the cap and shoot it, as we didn't know that mechanics or lack thereof to explain this phenomenon.

Try it - might take a thousand pellets, or not. We shot many pounds of pellets through that rifle after the sights "fell off". Lord probably knows, we didn't.
Start at about 4 or 5 years, then concentrate on a black dot, and take the shot - then again, and again and again, looking over or beside the barrel, doesn't matter - keep at it and your shots will close in on the 'spot'.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:49 am 
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Yeah, our minds / senses are stronger than we know . Just need to train it to develop it.

Another example, ppl will know there is someone looking at him/ her, right?

So train your inner force and muscle memory.... Pellets are cheap ( compare to the bullets ), just find a good gun then put enough pellets through it....

Sent from my LG cellphone

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HW35 Walnut + Hawke 40mm Scope
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HW40+Extender
HW45+Grip panels from Russia
P1322 with walnut forearm


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:37 pm 
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Daryl wrote:
Doc - that reminded me of my bro's Slavia back in 1958 through about 65/6 or so. We'd lost the sights, who knows what happened to them lol - I surely don't recall.

Whenever my aunt and uncle (S/SGT RCMPolice at that time) came to visit form London, we'd get out Taylor's air rifle and shoot at beer bottle caps placed in cracks and crevices in the barn window.
Sitting some 15 yards, away (maybe 10?), Taylor and I never missed. The adults could not hit them. (they'd also been drinking) They would attempt to see how we were "Aiming" but we weren't. Uncle Lou kept asking , "How are you aiming, down the side of the barrel?" We didn't know, just looked at the bottle caps and they'd pink-into the barn at the shot. Funny thing was that rifle had a horrid barrel droop, & it might even have been bent. We'd just say, we point at the cap and shoot it, as we didn't know that mechanics or lack thereof to explain this phenomenon.

Try it - might take a thousand pellets, or not. We shot many pounds of pellets through that rifle after the sights "fell off". Lord probably knows, we didn't.
Start at about 4 or 5 years, then concentrate on a black dot, and take the shot - then again, and again and again, looking over or beside the barrel, doesn't matter - keep at it and your shots will close in on the 'spot'.


Same thing you do with a sling shot too! We do it with snowballs, a football. It's all practice.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:59 am 
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Very interesting reading! It'd be great to see your bow shooting Daryl, sounds like you are quite the shooter!
I was pretty good with a sling shot as a kid, well probably Imo only, lol, but took quite a few magpies with it anyway. It's cool how our minds can learn to aim for us without any sights. Never did get any good instinctive shooting from the hip with my pellet pistol though as a kid. Now with the laser on its fun to shoot from down low, but that's cheating lol!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:37 am 
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YepYep wrote:
Yeah, our minds / senses are stronger than we know . Just need to train it to develop it.

Another example, ppl will know there is someone looking at him/ her, right?

So train your inner force and muscle memory.... Pellets are cheap ( compare to the bullets ), just find a good gun then put enough pellets through it....

Sent from my LG cellphone


Can always do try training. Doesn't always gotta be live. I got a target on my door I practice, drawing. Could put a laser on and see where it goes. And keep on doing bringing it up, bringing it up.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:17 am 
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Another question...

The muscle memory will related to certain gun or if you built up some muscle memory, you can keep the same sense while using other guns?!



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HW35 Walnut + Hawke 40mm Scope
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:20 am 
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leadslinger wrote:
YepYep wrote:
Yeah, our minds / senses are stronger than we know . Just need to train it to develop it.

Another example, ppl will know there is someone looking at him/ her, right?

So train your inner force and muscle memory.... Pellets are cheap ( compare to the bullets ), just find a good gun then put enough pellets through it....

Sent from my LG cellphone


Can always do try training. Doesn't always gotta be live. I got a target on my door I practice, drawing. Could put a laser on and see where it goes. And keep on doing bringing it up, bringing it up.
Yep ! A new way to use the laser!! Never think about it before.....

Sent from my LG cellphone

_________________
Izzy 46M
HW30 Stainless Steel + Discovery 40mm Scope
HW35 Walnut + Hawke 40mm Scope
2240+14" barrel/Williams peep sight
Camo Chaser long barrel rifle kit
P3+2x20 Kit Scope
HW40+Extender
HW45+Grip panels from Russia
P1322 with walnut forearm


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