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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:22 pm 
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I know this topic has probably been beat to death here but I havent found any clear discussion of it in my searching so here goes... For the sake of example lets look at an airgun I am looking at currently. I have my eye on a weihrach hw30s for general target shooting, plinking, and maybe the odd gopher or pigeon. The gun is available in .177 and .22 and with the stated velocities both produce about the same FPE at the muzzle with the .177 going around 625 fps at the muzzle and the .22 rated for 450 fps at the muzzle(based on my reading it seems that weihrauch is actually conservative with velocity figures unlike most brands) my question for those in the know is whether the .22 will retain more energy at range than the .177 it seems intuitively obvious that it should but I'm not sure of the math. The slower moving pellet would require more precise holdover but should have more energy than the faster .177 at equal ranges... I know someone is going to tell me that either caliber in this gun is too weak for hunting which may be technically true but that is not the main purpose of this gun and I have shot a lot of critters with a crosman 2240 pistol when I was a kid and never had a problem with well placed shots so I know it CAN be done. My inclination is toward the .177 for the wider variety of pellets and lower cost of said pellets but the .22 version is sub PAL rated which adds a convenience factor, and if it would be more effective on the odd pest I might shoot, it might be worth looking at. In short assuming the .177 and .22 pellets have roughly equal FPE at the muzzle will the .22 pellet carry that energy better at 15, 20, or 30 yds in spite of its lower velocity and arcing trajectory?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:32 pm 
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At 30 yards the 22 would only have 4.8ft/lb or 0.1ft/lb more than the 177 at 4.7ft/lb, if using equivalent crosman pellets, so personally I'd go for the 177, since it'd be a lot easier to be accurate over variable distance with the higher velocity and with that low of a power level you are going to need to be very precise to get a clean kill.
It'll also be cheaper for pellets and more fun for targets in my opinion but everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I go against my own advice, lol since my low power guns are all in 0.22[emoji1]

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:40 pm 
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I guess the foot pounds are only part of the equation... energy transfer is the other side of the coin which I think is where the .22 shines in the lower power bracket given that 30 yds would be a long shot for this gun on anything living the "smackdown" power of the larger .22 pellet would be an advantage wouldn't it? "no replacement for displacement" and all that? part of what has me thinking about all this is a post on airgun depot's blog about how in any given spring piston powerplant the .22 is more efficient then the .177 yielding higher energy at the muzzle which is great but we don't typically shoot things at point blank range so energy retention and transfer are more important than raw muzzle energy numbers. The velocity numbers I quoted are from the listing on D&L airguns but reports of actual velocities online seem to be a bit higher on average


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:56 pm 
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Yep, either would be great, supposed to be great guns. If the 22 was shooting closer to 500fps I'd probably be tempted too, to buy it instead. As you say maybe it is shooting around that 500fps range. I'm sure you'd be happy with either one. I'd like one myself [emoji846]

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:05 pm 
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Gunmart review on the 22 said it was shooting 480fps with 15.9 daystate pellets,(8.2ft/lbs), so that would be pretty close to 500fps with 14.3gr. Sounds like a nice choice! Supposed to be really accurate too

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:27 pm 
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Location: P.G. B.C.
For ethical hunting, I would need more power - thus, the PAL rifles in .22 and .25 - or much higher velocity HW in .177 - as in 890fps for 14.4fpe with 82gr pellets.

This, worked very well on gophers to 56yards.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:42 pm 
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Daryl, I agree with you on the power levels for ethical hunting for the most part and Im looking at this gun as a target/plinker fun gun but im also confident that within say 20 yds with good shot placement that a 6 ft/lb gun can do the job just fine. My own and many others with the 2240 pushing a .22 pellet at 470 fps on game as large as grouse (head shots,) seem to bear that out. If my prime use for the gun was hunting or pest control i would surely be looking for more power but as it is I just want it for target shooting with the odd shot at pests in and around buildings etc. no matter what gun you use it has limits its important to know them and shoot within them. for the most part I use powder burners for anything alive my interest is mostly curiosity about which caliber holds and delivers more energy at any given initial muzzle energy i.e. same power plant in 2 calibers which will hold the energy further and deliver that energy most efficiently


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:36 pm 
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If you want to see the energy down field I'd recommend downloading Hawkes chairgun on your phone or computer. You can put in the velocity at the muzzle with grain of pellet and see what the energy will be at whatever yardage you want. Perhaps you already knew about that program but maybe someone else reading doesn't anyway. I've found grouse with head shots ok at that speed, but gophers can be a bit trickier, they tend to get down the hole with the lower power guns and then you don't know if they are suffering. Better with a high power air rifle or 22 powder burner.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:42 am 
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Location: QC
Download chairgun and model a few pellets in different calibers, you'll have all the data you need to make an informed decision.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:09 am 
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I downloaded chairgun last night... up till now I had been using some online calculators to figure this stuff out but having it all in one place and being able to compare results side by side sure is nice. I took a look at the same pellet in .177 and .22 and tweaked the .22 velocity up 30 fps to make the foot pounds match and it looks like the .177 sheds energy faster in the first few yards but ends up keeping a bit more of it at 30 then the .22 while the .22 has a more even curve but ls very close to the .177 just a hair lower in energy at any given range.... makes me wonder because when we were kids and <500 fps guns were all we had .22 was clearly more effective than .177. I'm thinking it must be the difference in energy transfer that made the difference with .177 penetrating well but not shedding its energy while the .22 didn't penetrate as well but stopped in the target shedding its energy for "stopping power"


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:33 am 
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I haven't looked specifically at HW30's, but I would assume it's the same power plant in .177 and .22?

If so, I'd ignore the claimed FPS and assume the .22 is going to have more muzzle energy, and assuming similarly shaped pellets, better energy retention at ANY distance compared to the .177 model.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:28 am 
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Location: Coalmont BC
The downrange energy will depend more on pellet choice than caliber.... Since you are limited in power you will be staying with the lighter pellets in either caliber.... Round nose pellet, such as Crosman Premiers or JSB Exacts, retain a much higher percentage of their velocity and energy than a pointed, hollowpoint, or wadcutter.... Since the energy delivery, with good pellets, will be similar, then you have to choose between penetration (.177) or impact (.22).... That will depend on target to a large extent.... Feathered armour tends to favour penetration, but in reality, with head shots, either gun will work it you do your job....

With such low power, I wouldn't even think about it.... My choice would be .177, with the most accurate round-nose pellet I can find.... JSB RS, Express, or maybe Exact, the lighter the better for flatter trajectory, IMO.... since headshots are the order....

Bob

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