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 Post subject: Rifle thread wear out
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:01 pm 
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Location: GTA, ON
I heard that in the fire arms, after long time or say heavily used, the rifle thread will wear out and affects the accuracy then also means the barrel is done, you will have to replace it...

In the air guns, so far didn't hear about similar things ( yet )... Is that because of the very soft lead pellets? But in the other hand, the metal used in making air gun barrels are also much softer than the metal used on fire arm barrels... And we do have alloy pellets....

So, should we still need to concern about the barrel wearing??

Sent from my LG cellphone

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Izzy 46M
HW30 Stainless Steel + Discovery 40mm Scope
HW35 Walnut + Hawke 40mm Scope
2240+14" barrel/Williams peep sight
Camo Chaser long barrel rifle kit
P3+2x20 Kit Scope
HW40+Extender
HW45+Grip panels from Russia
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:45 pm 
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YepYep wrote:
I heard that in the fire arms, after long time or say heavily used, the rifle thread will wear out and affects the accuracy then also means the barrel is done, you will have to replace it...

In the air guns, so far didn't hear about similar things ( yet )... Is that because of the very soft lead pellets? But in the other hand, the metal used in making air gun barrels are also much softer than the metal used on fire arm barrels... And we do have alloy pellets....

So, should we still need to concern about the barrel wearing??

Sent from my LG cellphone


The correct term is rifling.

I have rimfire rifles from the 40-50s with mint bores and well used. It be hard pressed to wear out a barrel in a airgun using lead pellets.

and you also don't got the heat from the powder igniting and gases going down the barrel with the bullet. Looking at 100K + and might start to get worn.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:58 pm 
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only thing you might notice is some lead buildup in the barrel from a lot of shots and i mean a lot...
and its nothing that a nice cleaning rod kit cant take care of... :wink:
rifled barrels are great but there are some nice smooth bore barrels out there
that are pretty darn accurate...so i wouldn't give to much thought to your barrel
showing sings of wear unless you really abuse or neglect it...

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:24 pm 
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[emoji16][emoji16] nice to hear such a direct answers from the Pros ~

I do my house cleaning from time to time while I remember and have time...

Usually the first cleaning pellet will be black color, then the second one changes to gray and the 3rd one will be the last one I need to insert and push out ~

just remember last time I do the first time cleaning on my HW45, I got 3 black color pellets, and used 5 to finish... I think it's about 600 shots through it... How about, if anyone out there, they never do the barrel cleaning ? I heard that some how, the air guns don't need that....

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Izzy 46M
HW30 Stainless Steel + Discovery 40mm Scope
HW35 Walnut + Hawke 40mm Scope
2240+14" barrel/Williams peep sight
Camo Chaser long barrel rifle kit
P3+2x20 Kit Scope
HW40+Extender
HW45+Grip panels from Russia
P1322 with walnut forearm


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:29 pm 
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Like my Glock 34 9mm. That barrel is good for 50-80K rounds before you need to replace. All depends if I shoot powder coated lead, Its in the upper level. Jacketed/plated would be in the lower level.

All lead in a airgun. I think you might wear it out in 20 years.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:38 pm 
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It is easy to wear out a centre fire rifle barrel prematurely by shooting it hot. Used correctly and cleaned often, they will last from 2,000 to 15,000 rounds before the rifling is worn

to the point of inaccuracy. I have a Model 70 Winchester .30é06 that was built in September of 1936, the very first year WW made model 70's. It shoots just over 1/2" for 5 shots at 100meters

off bags with 165 and 180gr. handloads. The rifle has a 1950's era 4X Lyman scope on it. This rifle has been properly cared for.

I would guess it virtually impossible to wear out a .22 LR barrel by shooting it. Most RF barrels (& CF barrels) are worn out by improper or careless (same thing) use of a cleaning rod.

I cannot for the life of me see how you could wear out an air rifle barrel in 2 or 3 lifetimes. I would not worry about it.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:14 pm 
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I surprised no one has brought up "Not recommended to use Steel BB's in a rifled barrel."
I know some pistols that have a rifled barrel Umarex Walther PPQ CO2 Pellet/BB Pistol says you can use both. Must be more out there.
Crosman Pumpmaster 760 says both but that not rifled....
Maybe it's a myth. Image
I just never thought it was a good idea.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:19 am 
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yes your correct HuskyDude steel BB's will ruin the barrel rifling, BB's are made more for smooth bore barrels
i was under the impresion the OP was just wondering about lead specifically...
also not sure why others were mentioning powder burners don't think
the OP was asking about those...i guess all info is good info ... :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:34 am 
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lol ~ it's good to know anything new always ~

I was a reading a book ( not text book always ~ [emoji16]), and it mentioned the faction didn't have new weapon supplies for a very long time and the only weapons that have been kept using for many years are the old AKs with worn out rifling...

Sent from my LG cellphone

_________________
Izzy 46M
HW30 Stainless Steel + Discovery 40mm Scope
HW35 Walnut + Hawke 40mm Scope
2240+14" barrel/Williams peep sight
Camo Chaser long barrel rifle kit
P3+2x20 Kit Scope
HW40+Extender
HW45+Grip panels from Russia
P1322 with walnut forearm


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:46 am 
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Posts: 5878
Location: P.G. B.C.
HuskyDude wrote:
I surprised no one has brought up "Not recommended to use Steel BB's in a rifled barrel."
I know some pistols that have a rifled barrel Umarex Walther PPQ CO2 Pellet/BB Pistol says you can use both. Must be more out there.
Crosman Pumpmaster 760 says both but that not rifled....
Maybe it's a myth. Image
I just never thought it was a good idea.



I would never consider using steel BB's in any rifled barrel, thus did not think anyone else would/could be so foolish, either.

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Daryl


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:56 am 
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YepYep wrote:
lol ~ it's good to know anything new always ~

I was a reading a book ( not text book always ~ [emoji16]), and it mentioned the faction didn't have new weapon supplies for a very long time and the only weapons that have been kept using for many years are the old AKs with worn out rifling...

Sent from my LG cellphone


AK's- as in autofire will "WEAR" a rifled barrel out very quickly. This is due somewhat to the buildup of heat from friction of the bullet but mostly/mainly from the heat of powder combustion

actually burning the surface of the throat to start then further hot shooting, the rifling erosion continues up the bore.

Years ago, I had one .375 barrel I did a lot of experimentation with and had put close to 10,000 rounds through, then sold it to a friend. The next two owners continued shooting the rifle a lot until

the barrel was retired. We figure over 15,000 rounds total. I obtained that original barrel after it was replaced on the rifle and cut 4" from the breech, re-threaded it and cut a new shorter 2"

chamber for a little wildcat I dreamed up, .375 2", on a necked up .350 Rem Mag case, belt turned off, so it was a semi-rimless ctg. to to the .532" 'magnum' rim and .505" head diameter.

This old worn out barrel still shot close just under 2" at 100meters, but the rifling really didn't start until about 2" ahead of the 'new' chamber.

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Daryl


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:42 pm 
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Daryl wrote:
YepYep wrote:
lol ~ it's good to know anything new always ~

I was a reading a book ( not text book always ~ [emoji16]), and it mentioned the faction didn't have new weapon supplies for a very long time and the only weapons that have been kept using for many years are the old AKs with worn out rifling...

Sent from my LG cellphone


AK's- as in autofire will "WEAR" a rifled barrel out very quickly. This is due somewhat to the buildup of heat from friction of the bullet but mostly/mainly from the heat of powder combustion

actually burning the surface of the throat to start then further hot shooting, the rifling erosion continues up the bore.

Years ago, I had one .375 barrel I did a lot of experimentation with and had put close to 10,000 rounds through, then sold it to a friend. The next two owners continued shooting the rifle a lot until

the barrel was retired. We figure over 15,000 rounds total. I obtained that original barrel after it was replaced on the rifle and cut 4" from the breech, re-threaded it and cut a new shorter 2"

chamber for a little wildcat I dreamed up, .375 2", on a necked up .350 Rem Mag case, belt turned off, so it was a semi-rimless ctg. to to the .532" 'magnum' rim and .505" head diameter.

This old worn out barrel still shot close just under 2" at 100meters, but the rifling really didn't start until about 2" ahead of the 'new' chamber.


Its more because the ammo they use and some AK's have non chromed lined barrel. They use corrosive primers. Being a BP guy, how fast does your black powder guns rust after firing? That what happens with the AKs

Our weapons have chrome lined barrel, so it increases the life, and also does not use corrosive primers.

Same thing happens with people with SKSs, they shoot the corrosive ammo and forget to clean. Wake up with rusted internals and gas tube.

YepYep wrote:
lol ~ it's good to know anything new always ~

I was a reading a book ( not text book always ~ [emoji16]), and it mentioned the faction didn't have new weapon supplies for a very long time and the only weapons that have been kept using for many years are the old AKs with worn out rifling...

Sent from my LG cellphone


AK get worn out because they often used alot, they are used in sandy environment, poorly maintained, non chrome lined barrels in some of the early models, also that comblock ammo 762x38 they use, has corrosive primers, so add a stamped metal gun + corrosive primer = RUST.. So shortens the life. They clean using just rags, diesel and engine oil to lube.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:38 pm 
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My BP guns do not rust after firing - ever - never rusted one in 40 years of shooting them. I clean them properly after shooting - no rust.

BP fouling is not corrosive as in an acid being corrosive as BP fouling simply causes common oxidation/rust if humidity is over about 35%, due to the combination of fouling and moisture.

If the humidity is under 35%, there will be no rust from BP fouling. Pits caused by oxidation are simple pits. Pits caused by corrosive priming and/or powders, cause craters actually have larger

bottom width than the tops - craters like on the moon.

"Corrosive" priming actually has a corrosion-effect which quite literally, the primer fouling mixing with even a minuscule amount of moisture produces an acid which dissolves the iron molecules in the

steel, not simply oxidizing as in rusting. The Chlorates and Percolates used in corrosive primer composition are responsible for this.

You will get the same, although even accelerated corrosion effect when using Pyrodex in a muzzleloading rifle or BPCtg. gun. 17% of Pyrodex is perclorates. What percentage

of the primer composition, & in grains weight, is actual perclorates in comparison to 17% of the 80gr. to 150gr. main charge in a muzzleloader?

The heat of firing is the prime cause of worn out barrels in both semi-auto and full auto guns. Chrome lining bores and chambers helps but does not

stop the erosion caused by the burning powder.

You can take a brand new .22-250 bolt action rifle and literally destroy the barrel's accuracy with one trip to the range.

You could do this with firing 40 or 50 factory rounds in just 30 minutes. Besides being almost hopelessly fouled (hours of cleaning necessary) with guilding

metal and powder fouling, layer upon layer, it will already have a throat that looks like the Idaho salt flats, with heat-stress-cracks all over it's surface. Bore scopes show this quite dramatically.

BTW- corrosive primer fouling, ie: perclorate fouling must be cleaned with water first, just as it was during WW1.

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Last edited by Daryl on Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:42 pm 
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Daryl wrote:
My BP guns do not rust after firing - ever - never rusted one in 40 years of shooting them. I clean them properly after shooting - no rust.

Corrosive priming actually has a corrosion-effect which quite literally, the primer fouling is dissolving the iron molecules in the steel, not simply oxidizing as in rusting.

Chlorates and Percolates used in corrosive primer compostion are responsible for this.

You will get the same, although quite accelerated corrosion effect when using Pyrodex in a muzzleloading rifle or BPCtg. gun. 17% of Pyrodex is perclorates. What percentage

of the primer composition, & in grains weight, is perclorates in comparison to 17% of the 80gr. to 150gr. main charge in a muzzleloader?

The heat of firing is the prime cause of worn out barrels in both semi-auto and full auto guns. Chrome lining bores and chambers helps but does not

stop the erosion caused by the burning powder.

You can take a brand new .22-250 bolt action rifle and literally destroy the barrel's accuracy with one trip to the range.

You could do this with firing 40 or 50 factory rounds in just 30 minutes. Besides being almost hopelessly fouled (hours of cleaning necessary) with guilding

metal and powder fouling, layer upon layer, it will already have a throat that looks like the Idaho salt flats, with heat-stress-cracks all over it's surface. Bore scopes show this quite dramatically.

BTW- corrosive primer fouling, ie: perclorate fouling must be cleaned with water first, just as it was during WW1.


I was merely stating you know what would happen, if you don't clean your BP after you fire.

Take all what you said and don't do it. That's why the AKs are worn out. Ive seen them in Afghanistan, they were pretty shiny, no finish left on and pretty ruined. Father used to teach Afghans how to use AKs.. They don't get cleaned really.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:38 pm 
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Yes - I understand that.

Just stating the causes of barrel wear. As far as any SKS or AK, M16's, etc, their barrels wear prematurely (compared to bolt guns or single shot guns) due to rate of fire more so than fouling

corrosion by primer residue.

As we are concerned with accuracy & bore wear, exactly what the above named guns have little of & do not need due to their intended use.

You can destroy a CF bolt action rifle's barrel in one day at the range through too-fast firing and no cooling off periods - or less than that fast semi-auto fire and even less time with full auto fire.

You are the one in control, which is pretty much the 'jist' of this thread that being, rifling wear, what causes it and how long does it take?

Air rifles likely never WEAR out - and .22RF almost never or bores are worn are worn out by improper cleaning.

CF barrels will never last as long, as far as - "as long" means number of rounds as air guns or rim fire guns.

Some CF barrels will last longer than others - such things as rate of fire, temperature - ambient temp. and barrel temp., case capacity, as in relation to the bore size & to some extent, what type and material of projectile.

If you shot nothing but cast bullets in about any CF rifle, you would likely quadruple the life expectancy of the barrel, at a bare minimum.

The only problem with that is a .303" becomes just as powerful as any .300 ultra-magnum using 3 times as much powder. With jacketed bullets - there is no comparison, but with cast bullets, they

are both held to the same rules of cast bullet velocity with the same bullet weights. Experienced bullet casters can and do 'extra' steps to increase the power of cast bullet loads, to close to

jacketed performance. A good understanding of the intricacies of casting and shooting cast bullet alloys is necessary to take advantage of the capabilities of certain alloy compositions.

If interested in this sort of thing, "Jacketed Bullet Performance with Cast Bullets" by Veral Smith, will teach you how.

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