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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:47 pm 
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Don't know much about regulators, and got 3 of these tanks I'm trying to make serviceable for PCP use by increasing output pressure.

The belleville washers do not look adjustable, do not think I can change stack pattern.
I think I need to add shims below the piston in this case to increase output max pressure?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:01 pm 
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is this not an o-ring ?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:00 am 
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Stick something in that hole and turn?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:29 am 
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Yes, you need to add flat shims to increase the pressure of that regulator.... However, there are a couple of things to know.... Does the regulator have two burst discs, one for the inlet (tank) pressure and one for the outlet (regulated) pressure?.... If so, it is likely that the output burst disc is 1.8K (1800 psi), which means it will burst and dump all the air in the tank if the pressure is much over 1500 psi.... What is the output pressure now (likely 850 psi) ?.... What gun do you want to use it on, and what is the safe operating pressure ?....

Next, regarding the regulator itself, if the Belleville washers are not stiff (thick) enough, and you keep adding shims, eventually you will force the Bellevilles to go flat (like a spring going coil bound), at which point the regulator will bypass whatever the tank pressure is to the output side.... This WILL either blow the output burst disc, or if that is too high a value it could overpressurize the gun, causing valve lock, which is a condition where you can't fire the gun because the pressure is too high.... The solution if the Bellevilles is too thin is to replace them with thicker ones to raise the entire operating range of the regulator....

AS ALWAYS, IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HPA AND THE IMPLICATIONS, IT IS SAFER NOT TO PLAY WITH IT !!!!

Bob

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:55 pm 
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Bob im pretty sure the OP's question is that he doesn't know how to ad/remove shims
he thinks that his shim stack isn't serviceable and i'm pretty sure it is like most are...

the pattern you have on the stack now is the correct pastern to increase pressure if you want to decrease
then you can remove some shims or turn a shim around onto itself....
example shim stack increase: )()()()()( decrease: )))()()()(

there are different type shims like there are springs some shims are thinner and some are thicker
you need to determine the thickness of your shims and see if they have thicker shims to up your
pressure...and like Bob said
Quote:
AS ALWAYS, IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HPA AND THE IMPLICATIONS, IT IS SAFER NOT TO PLAY WITH IT !!!!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:06 pm 
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Personally I would not reverse any Bellevilles, particularly with the arrangement shown in the photo, which has a flat brass shim on each end, of different thicknesses, either one or both of which could be removed to decrease the pressure.... but that doesn't apply anyways, because he wants to increase it.... The only way to do that is to add shims, or to use thicker Bellevilles.... I suppose you could double up on the existing Bellevilles )) (( )) (( )) (( instead of using thicker ones, but then you would need to add a LOT of shims....

Bob

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Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:21 pm 
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I figured flat shims would be needed after studying the reg, but wanted to make sure. I did not want to mess with Belleville’s anyways. I am looking for 1800 fill pressure suitable for discovery fills. I was thinking about changing the output burst disc to 3k to achieve this(is this a no no? I have 3 identical setups like these and would like to use them.

Is it any sense to try to modify this regulator then or just buy new regulators for the tanks, it did not strike me as a setup that is durable.

I have a ninja that I bought not long ago with 3000 psi output but Man are they costly.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:49 pm 
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There is no problem changing out the burst disc on a Ninja or other quality regulator, but I have no idea what yours is like.... Whether you SHOULD change it to a higher pressure will depend on what you are connecting to the output.... On a 3000 psi MRod, no problem.... on a QB or other CO2 gun.... leave the 1.8K burst disc in place for safety and stay within its pressure limits (1400-1500 psi max.)....

Bob

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Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:08 pm 
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If you have 3 the same you could easily steal a few belleville from one to add to the other, for example adding one on each side like this ((())), at least I don't see why that wouldn't work. Using a 3000psi burst disk should be fine for filling a disco.
Once you know what gets you to the right pressure you can replace the missing belleville from your parts reg with your belleville you've purchased.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:41 pm 
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Adding Bellevilles to only PART of the stack will NOT increase the maximum pressure available before the remaining single Bellevilles compress completely flat.... I very much dislike using mixed "single and pair" arrangements because you can actually damage the single Bellevilles if you aren't careful because the double or triple ones can cause them to reverse, which will completely ruin them.... For instance, an arrangement like this....

(( ) ((

when loaded past the force required to flatten the single Belleville in the stack will cause it to become bent (reversed) into the double pair to the left of it.... The force required to flatten that single Belleville is the SAME as if you didn't have any pairs in the stack.... When building regulators that is why I always use all singles, or all pairs....

) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ....or.... )) (( )) (( )) ((

The pairs above will have twice the spring force, but half the travel than the singles.... and you will never damage them.... If you don't build the stacks like that, you have to really pay attention to what you are doing.... and you have to realize that you can't get a higher force than the singles alone, so you may as well just use flat shims to replace them, because that is what you end up with under load....

Bob

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Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal;
Too many! Springers, Pumpers, CO2, but I love my PCPs and developing them!
Proud Member of the 2000+fps Club!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:53 pm 
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Good points Bob. I was only thinking of using the extra belleville in place of shims if you didn't have any available, but I see how this could cause more problems. Safer to just get some shims. My regulator for some reason had some thin and some thick belleville so I assumed it wouldn't be a problem as long as the opposing washers were against one of the same thickness. I wasn't thinking about how it could cause the others to bend backwards.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:48 pm 
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rsterne wrote:
There is no problem changing out the burst disc on a Ninja or other quality regulator, but I have no idea what yours is like.... Whether you SHOULD change it to a higher pressure will depend on what you are connecting to the output.... On a 3000 psi MRod, no problem.... on a QB or other CO2 gun.... leave the 1.8K burst disc in place for safety and stay within its pressure limits (1400-1500 psi max.)....

Bob


Hey Bob, I am using a discovery I built with Magnum Air Power screws, that should make it good for up to 3000PSI. But I never want to take it that far really (Until I get a regulator for the tube), 1800-2000 would be ideal for me. I want the safety of not being able to overfill, so setting the regulator precisely is what I am aiming for. I should add, that I realize the best potential for a 3k bottle is to use a lower output, a 2800-2900 output would be of little value on a 3000k fill of a rifle.

The tank/regs are G.I. Sportz... I think its a rename of the Air Assault brand? Its a regular type regulator as far as I can tell, has the Tank Burst Disc (5K), as well as a Output Burst disc (1.8K of Course).

Pictures would be better, but so troublesome on ipad.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:36 pm 
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G.i. reg's are not that great they have a tendency to creep and blow the 1.8K disk...
I think the Thrust regs are just Diablo air systems and G.I. Sportz is just a re-brand
get a Ninja reg there one of the best reg out there

this is the reg you have...not great

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this is the one you want/need :wink:

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