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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:54 am 
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Location: Bowmanville, Ontario
Hi guys, I’ve been meaning to post this for a while but hadn’t had the time to devote to properly explaining everything. Still don’t, really. But I need to sort this out.

Long story short;
Benjamin classic .22 modded with heavy spring and tuned. The recoil is, mmm, moderate, I suppose. I feel it is effecting the scope. The scope is the stock one that comes with the classic .22. Not a bad scope, I don’t think. I like it better than some other cheap ones I’ve had.
For the life of me, I cannot group smaller than 2” at 30 yards, (always about 5-10 shots)
Before the heavy spring and tuning, my best group was about 7/8”, which I was thrilled with, but man, I was working really hard to do that... (artillary hold, etc)
I HAVE seen unstable pellets, so I know that’s in there. The rifle is obviously much more powerful than before. I am still trying to find the right pellet for the gun. But I’m the mean time, I’m searching for tips on how to help the scope out a bit. Im also considering slowing the gun down a bit if I can’t weed out the instability issues with heavier better pellets?...

In addition to this, I bought a b3-2 xisico .22. Kinda clunky, tuned/cleaned a bit. Nothing major, typical deburring, etc. Right out of the box I shot 5 14 grains in a 1” group at about 25 yards with open sights. I was laughing out loud!
I put a centerpoint scope on it and it all went to hell. Can’t even keep it within the 3” target...

Please ask as many questions as necessary to gather necessary information to solve these problems.
I’ve gotten head over heels in love with this sport, I’ve watched every single teds holdover videos, haha. I’d like to transition into better more accurate guns, but, money money... everyone stars somewhere.

Thanks guys, I look forward to hanging around here.
Shawn

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:30 am 
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Location: Tecumseh, Ontario in South Western Ontario
"In addition to this, I bought a b3-2 xisico .22. Kinda clunky, tuned/cleaned a bit. Nothing major, typical deburring, etc. Right out of the box I shot 5 14 grains in a 1” group at about 25 yards with open sights. I was laughing out loud!
I put a centerpoint scope on it and it all went to hell. Can’t even keep it within the 3” target...

Please ask as many questions as necessary to gather necessary information to solve these problems.
I’ve gotten head over heels in love with this sport, I’ve watched every single teds holdover videos, haha. I’d like to transition into better more accurate guns, but, money money... everyone stars somewhere."

If the b3-2 xisico was shooting well with the open sights it's because the front and rear sights are on the barrel. So, with a scope you're at the mercy of the breach lock up which might be different with every shot. You might try tightening it up as much as possible.
As for the benjamin it's the old story where the more powerful a springer gets, the more the recoil affects the accuracy.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:52 pm 
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Sorry, should have mentioned the Xisico is an undercock with a fixed barrel. So, I feel nothing should have changed with the addition of a scope unless the reticle is moving around?

Could that be the case for both guns? The Benjamin does not have open sights to even try to see if it is Infact the scope.
I've read that you can somewhat alleviate problems with the retical springs by adjusting the scope so the springs are tensioned a bit more, crank it over to one side, I guess? Does this actually make an improvement? Which direction do the windage and elevation dials want to turn in order to tension the springs, generally?

Would it just be easier to use the Xisico with open sights?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:38 pm 
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Location: Winnipeg, Canada
I'd be interested in how the Benjamin was originally de-tuned.
There are other de-tuning methods besides reduced springs that crosman has used. There are long and short pistons, piston shims and even pistons with bleed holes in them....

I'm a bit out of my league in replying to this though. There will be other replies here that come from more solid ground.

I do have a B-1-2 here that has a hole in the piston, and it is very much a scope eater. Once a scope is wrecked by a springer, the scope becomes pretty well useless...

-D.S.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:15 pm 
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If on the same gun, same distance, it groups better on open sight than the scope, I supposed that on each shot the recoil changes the scope position a very little bit, maybe not to one direction, but the zeroing just changed for the coming shot...

I heard that there are some mounts designed for the magnum soringers than can keep tbe zeroing very well with not only the fix screw but also can filters the recoil pass through to the scope... Try to Google it ~

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:41 pm 
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The Benjamin was only detuned with a .098" mainspring. The piston was normal (short), no hole.
The spring I put in was .128" or something like that. There is a .118" spring. I wonder if I should try that and see if life somewhere in the middle is better.

The Xisico has surprisingly little recoil. The I made the mounts myself. The guy at the store gave me a scope with weaver sized mounts instead of 11mm dovetail. Maybe that's my weak link for that gun. The dovetail rings aren't expensive. Maybe I'll just go buy them and try again. It would be nice is that's how easy that gun could be. It's not a bad shooter. If I can get 7/8" at 25 yards open sight, that gun should be a killer with a sight. Not that it's powerful enough to kill anything...

But the Benjamin disappoints me. I'd really like that gun to preform.

I ordered some heavier pellets for it last week, they came today. Jsb diabolo exact 18 grain domes. Every seems to love that pellet, and some h&n barracuda 21 grain.
Wondering if the heavier, better quality pellet will help. I've seen some spiraling with the cheapo pellets.

I was hoping to have some time to setup my shooting station this evening to try some stuff out, but it doesn't look like that will happen. Maybe tomorrow.
I'd like to hope I haven't hoopa-jooped my scopes...
It would also be nice to have some open sights for the Benjamin just to compare.

But as far as the scopes go, any advise for springers aside from tighten all the screws?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Actually I don't believe you have loosed screws... And just be careful not over tighten the screws...

Sometimes the recoil from a springer to the scope / mounts is just too strong... Once I had a red dot for my Hatsan Mod-25 pistol, without the set screw, the recoil just keep pushing the adapter mount backwards even the end of dove tail cut into the mount won't stop it...

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HW35 Walnut + Hawke 40mm Scope
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:47 pm 
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So basically I'm up the creek with the Benjamin in its current state?
Is there maybe a particular scope that's better suited for a heavy recoil? I was hoping that I could zero this gun to 40-50 yards max. I'm not hoping or expecting anything beyond that. I fully understand the limitations of a springer. My hope is to obtain a pcp in the somewhat near future, but until then I try to grease the rabbits that are eating all my flowers with this bad boy. I'd just rather it be as accurate as it can be so as to not mame and disfigure.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:10 pm 
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I think your scope is still good although I didn't have any my scope 'destroyed' by a springer in my hand but heard that before... If your scope is already dead, I doubt you will see something different...

If so, there is only the mount / rings affected by the recoil... Is there set screw hole on the gun? Or maybe you just need to find another mount to try?!

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HW30 Stainless Steel + Discovery 40mm Scope
HW35 Walnut + Hawke 40mm Scope
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:39 pm 
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The reticle rotation is an issue fixed with some glue or peening the threads holding the reticle in. It'll make sense if you look in there, but no need unless it moves. The thing w/ the W/E screws is those two screw against the inner erector tube to move the tube and thus your image around. The tube is pressed up against the screws via a little leaf spring, no spring then it no workie. If the gun has barrel droop then you have to adj the elevation up thus taking tension of the spring and now the tube can move more easily. Springers are hard on scopes with that piston impact and the shock of firing can move that tube. It should normally land back in the same spot but most scopes are not precision so it may or may not. The real prob is that reduced spring tension,so if the spring is barely holding the tube in place then, well, you get the picture. On some scopes the spring won't even reach all the way to match a fully raised elevation. So for many peep the spring is just barely holding, or not holding, and unable to set the tube back in place ea time. The fix is shimming the scope which means no need to adj the elevation up and thus more spring tension. Plus it puts the lenses in better alignment for more accuracy. I like to set the scope so inner tube is parallel with the outer, aka centered, then shim until close to on target. Then only very minor W/E adj is needed and everyone's happier.
Another issue is parallax error, so if you have a generic cheapie non-AO airgun scope it's likely set to ~100'. Parallax is like focus in several ways, one is how far off is acceptable is entirely up to you. Two is both are much worse at close ranges. So you can set either to 100M and it's more or less good enough from 50M to infinity. Set either to 10M and it's obviously off at either 5M or 20M. Rimfire scopes are usually set to ~50 yards, centerfire ~100yards which is b/c on avg those #'s work fine for those guns. Airguns shoot at very close range so those setting not work very well. Even the 100' setting for airgun scopes is not good enough for many and need to be adjusted or replaced w/ an AO scope you can adj for each range. Like if you shoot at a 10M target and ~30M for squirrels, you'd need to adj your non-AO scope from 100' to ~17M (the approx middle) or set at or closer to the more important range. Like focus it can't do both perfectly, unless, like focus, it's adjustable.
If you want I can send you a guide on how to shim it, and adj a non-AO scope. It includes lots of other stuff like how your main seal and/or breech seal leakage will contribute to accuracy and scope probs, and how to minimize those probs. Too heavy a spring will do the same and make any leakage issue more pronounced. The oem full power .122" spring is a pretty good match for the gun btw, it's just low quality. A .128 is a bit much, but the OD is as important so do you recall that? What brand/model? Another important factor is how close to coil bind it is when cocked, which is adjustable in that gun so you can always reduce power if you need. There's also the barrel which I can guarantee has serious flaws, which you can't fix but you can make it much better in most cases. chevota at hotmail and I'll send the info. Detailed text and pix w/ arrows n stuff so it's easy to understand ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:34 pm 
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Here's what I've learned in the past 40 mins....

1- shooting from your belly makes you very aware of how many stones you have in your grass, Uhhg.
2- and this one appears to be important... The wrong pellets really suck...

Being a backyard paper puncher, on a budget, with a wife who despises excessive spending, you buy what pellets are cheap and available locally. Which in my case are an awful lot of crummy crosman, mostly hollow point. All forms of hollow point.
I was in Peterborough a few weeks back and went to Air Gun Source. Grabbed a JSB sampler pack. Back when my Benjamin was unmodified.
Found that 5.52mm fired really well. Those were 13 grain. Once I modded, those 13 grain were no good. Almost like dry firing.

Since I modded the only I had to fire were those crosman destroyer hollow point. Junk. All over the place.
I recieved the jsb match diabolo exact yada yada 18.1 grain domes. Awesome.

Once I zeroed the scope, it shot great. However, still have to work pretty hard with the artillery hold, however, the trigger has got to go. Terrible. Completely unpredictable. Which accounts for the fliers.

I took some pictures. The overview shows the zeroing on the left and the 3" targets. Not bad. But you can see where I hesitated firing and pulled off the target, and the unpredictability of the trigger.
I was firing from a sandbag on the ground. Quite a bit easier to hold the target with the butt on the ground than my shoulder on the bench.

I also tried the Xisico again. This time with crosman pointed, which worked well. On the right, zeroing. Had to use the center of the whole page cause I couldn't find where the pellets were hitting. Haha.
Then was getting some good groups.
All this at 30 yards. That's the furthest I can shoot in my yard.
I guess problem solved?... I'm gonna try to get out again tomorrow and put as much lead down range as I can. I've gone through a LOT of pellets across this yard, but, all different kinds. I need to stick to one brand and find out how it shoots in all settings.


Attachments:
File comment: Benjamin_2
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File comment: Benjamin_1
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File comment: Overview
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IMG_20180728_201437-1200x900.jpg [ 174.45 KiB | Viewed 405 times ]

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:35 pm 
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The rest of the photos


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File comment: Xisico zeroing
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:43 pm 
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Haha. Chevota, I did email before, I read your WHOLE write up and tuned the gun based on your information. Right down to sanding/shaping the main seal, buttons, shimming the breech seal, etc. Amazing write up, btw. Very informative.
My email was shawnhuk@.

I shimmed the scopes on both guns. First thing I did when I mounted them. And did my best to level the scopes to the barrel with the best torpedo level I had at the time.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:58 pm 
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Looking at those targets again, doesn't look all that shocking at a quick glance. Just as many fliers as there are X's. But it's those X's that are impressive to me. I know when I pull off target cause of the trigger, I don't even have to see the target to know it was bad.
But with the wrong pellets in the Benjamin, even other ones aside from the destroyers, I just had no hope.
This is what I was getting before with those destroyer pellets after I tuned the gun.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:11 pm 
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See... But then the very next day it goes and does this.
This is bench rest on two sand bags to allow to hold on the x more stable. I tried artillery hold, holding firm, and in betweene. I was aiming top left...
She'a make'a no sense...


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