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 Post subject: weird 1322 velocity laws
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:45 pm 
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i've been thinking about this for a bit, so i thought i'd ask.

OK, so the regular 1322 can shoot over 500 fps, but only if you pump it more then your supposed to (above 10). if you did that, then it would be restricted, cause of barrel length. here is A part i don't get. so if you were to add a stock to the gun, then it would be non-restricted SBR because it's not semi auto (heard somewhere sbr's and sbs's are non-restricted in Canada as long as they are not semi-auto) but there was a pinned post about a 2240 with a larger length that was still considered restricted because it "was" a pistol. Not sure then if a faster 1322 would be restricted then even with a stock then.

related also to my next point which would be about flat top pistons.

So, since at 10 pumps with a flat top it shoots like 520 fps, does that mean it would be non-regulated (just a regular airgun) if it was pumped to say 5 pumps? since the regular is legal as long as you stay under 10 pumps to keep it slow enough, does that mean if you changed out the valve, and just put less pumps into it to keep it under 500, could it still be non-regulated...? and if not going back to the whole converted pistol thing from before, whether or not it would be restricted or non restricted.

so i know that this post is structured badly, just trying to understand Canada's overly complicated airgun laws. hopefully someone can even understand what i'm trying to get across with this wall of text.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:06 pm 
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Believe it or not this 1377 beauty is considered a pistol in Canada so it must stay under 500 fps to remain unrestricted...even though it looks like a rifle.....


Attachments:
_20180903_150053.JPG
_20180903_150053.JPG [ 88.04 KiB | Viewed 497 times ]

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:23 pm 
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Wow ~ this 1377 is SOOOO nice ~

Let's get back to the topic.

We will stay on the book first. Officially stated by Crosman, the 1322/13777/2240 are all PISTOLs. That's what it originally designed and produced.

Once it's a pistol, it will remain as a pistol whatever how you mod it, because we have more strict laws on that.

And then, the Crosman manual say, you must NOT pump it more than 10 pumps. So you don't abey it, is your problem.

The factory stock gun is very close to the limit, so we need to be careful to keep your moded one stay inside the limit. And flat top valve actually is one famous mod which will usually make your gun break the limit... You just change the power plant of your gun. Just like you switch your inline 4 cylinder engine to a V6. You won't just think it will give you 10 more horse power, will you?!

And again, we back to the book, the manual say you can pump the gun to 10 pumps. Do you think the officer will just pump one pump and test your gun's muzzle speed based on that?!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:33 pm 
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The most important thing to remember, as was mentioned, is that the 1377/22 is a pistol and will forever remain a pistol under firearms laws. So If you put a stock on it or longer barrel it remains a pistol.

I’m not even sure if we can step down Airguns from non restricted to non firearms as firearms laws only allow a one way step into a more restrictive category.

Now about sbr’s, as long as the overal length of a rifle/shotgun (in it’s shortest configuration) doesn’t go below the minimum legal oal your fine regardless of if it’s action (the added thing to remember is that the barrel you’re using is also manufactured to a specific length from factory and not cut down past the legal cut length, there are far more complicated parts of the Canadian gun laws then air guns). People build short barrel 10-22’s all the time with barrels as short as 8”.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:14 pm 
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YepYep wrote:
Wow ~ this 1377 is SOOOO nice ~

Let's get back to the topic.

We will stay on the book first. Officially stated by Crosman, the 1322/13777/2240 are all PISTOLs. That's what it originally designed and produced.

Once it's a pistol, it will remain as a pistol whatever how you mod it, because we have more strict laws on that.

And then, the Crosman manual say, you must NOT pump it more than 10 pumps. So you don't abey it, is your problem.

The factory stock gun is very close to the limit, so we need to be careful to keep your moded one stay inside the limit. And flat top valve actually is one famous mod which will usually make your gun break the limit... You just change the power plant of your gun. Just like you switch your inline 4 cylinder engine to a V6. You won't just think it will give you 10 more horse power, will you?!

And again, we back to the book, the manual say you can pump the gun to 10 pumps. Do you think the officer will just pump one pump and test your gun's muzzle speed based on that?!

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what if it were a backpacker or a specially ordered gun?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:49 pm 
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You got the point ~ I remember the 2289 backpacker is described by the manufacture, Crosman, as a rifle.

So whatever you mod it, it will become a PAL gun maximum and have no chance to be R.PAL rated.

I am not sure if you switch to a shorter barrel will be allowed by the law... Maybe someone else can answer it...

And others, like a 2230T etc, I think is still a pistol.

But something from the Crosman customized that you can switch to a longer barrel, I think it's still a pistol. Because it just another moded 2240 with longer barrel. Only the difference is it's not made by you but whoever mod it, it's still moded from the original 2240, a pistol.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:28 pm 
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YepYep wrote:
You got the point ~ I remember the 2289 backpacker is described by the manufacture, Crosman, as a rifle.

So whatever you mod it, it will become a PAL gun maximum and have no chance to be R.PAL rated.

I am not sure if you switch to a shorter barrel will be allowed by the law... Maybe someone else can answer it...

And others, like a 2230T etc, I think is still a pistol.

But something from the Crosman customized that you can switch to a longer barrel, I think it's still a pistol. Because it just another moded 2240 with longer barrel. Only the difference is it's not made by you but whoever mod it, it's still moded from the original 2240, a pistol.

Sent from my LG cellphone


OK, guess i need to get a backpacker now. makes total sense that its OK just cause it comes with a stock and the 1322 doesn't.
/s

but i wonder if you could shorten the backpacker barrel legally, if you could just use a backpacker compression tube with all the markings. probably not legal at all though, so i guess ill get a backpacker gun sometime if i want to.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:07 pm 
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YepYep wrote:
You got the point ~ I remember the 2289 backpacker is described by the manufacture, Crosman, as a rifle.

So whatever you mod it, it will become a PAL gun maximum and have no chance to be R.PAL rated.

I am not sure if you switch to a shorter barrel will be allowed by the law... Maybe someone else can answer it...

And others, like a 2230T etc, I think is still a pistol.

But something from the Crosman customized that you can switch to a longer barrel, I think it's still a pistol. Because it just another moded 2240 with longer barrel. Only the difference is it's not made by you but whoever mod it, it's still moded from the original 2240, a pistol.

Sent from my LG cellphone


No, no it doesn't. To give legal advice, you must know the laws. The 2289 is still a pistol. Because you can put grips on it and shoot it one handed. Just because crosman calls it a rifle doesn't make it one. Look at the Crosman 2250. They might call it a rifle, but RCMP doesn't.

All of the 22XX and 13xx airguns are pistols. Other then the 2260. But there isn't and non pal rated 2260's.

Why everybody builds off maximus, disco, 2260 maintubes. For C02/HPA. Or 2100/2200/760/140s. They're the only one classified as a rifle.


A quick search here yielded this.

Quote:
Okay, since this question has been bothering me I called the CFC and was put through to their so-called "verifier" section. After looking it up the gentleman there said that if the .22 cal 2289G strayed over 500 fps then it is classed as a restricted weapon. I asked specifically if that meant it was in the FRT as a handgun and he replied yes.


Last edited by leadslinger on Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:12 pm 
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Ausername wrote:
YepYep wrote:
You got the point ~ I remember the 2289 backpacker is described by the manufacture, Crosman, as a rifle.

So whatever you mod it, it will become a PAL gun maximum and have no chance to be R.PAL rated.

I am not sure if you switch to a shorter barrel will be allowed by the law... Maybe someone else can answer it...

And others, like a 2230T etc, I think is still a pistol.

But something from the Crosman customized that you can switch to a longer barrel, I think it's still a pistol. Because it just another moded 2240 with longer barrel. Only the difference is it's not made by you but whoever mod it, it's still moded from the original 2240, a pistol.

Sent from my LG cellphone


OK, guess i need to get a backpacker now. makes total sense that its OK just cause it comes with a stock and the 1322 doesn't.
/s

but i wonder if you could shorten the backpacker barrel legally, if you could just use a backpacker compression tube with all the markings. probably not legal at all though, so i guess ill get a backpacker gun sometime if i want to.


I wouldn't jump out and buy a 2289 thinking that you can get away with it being a rifle. RCMP says it a pistol. And limited to 500 FPS.

You also gotta realize that you need to meet the requirement of a non restricted. Must be 26" OAL. Barrel has to be factory, not cut. Only allowed max 18" shortening it yourself.

So only way around it is, modding a 2100/760/140 maintune to work. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:09 pm 
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See the Crosman owners manual I attached... It says the 2289 is a rifle....Image

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:13 pm 
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So... I can't cut the stock from a rifle with 'pistol grip stock' then shoot it with one hand?!

I now understand why there's always needs someone to 'explain' the law....

I hope the 2289 just the limited exception for this...

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:15 pm 
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YepYep wrote:
See the Crosman owners manual I attached... It says the 2289 is a rifle....Image

Sent from my LG cellphone


So.. RCMP classified it as a pistol. Always was in Canada.

Read this sticky.

topic67184.html


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:20 pm 
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YepYep wrote:
So... I can't cut the stock from a rifle with 'pistol grip stock' then shoot it with one hand?!

I now understand why there's always needs someone to 'explain' the law....

I hope the 2289 just the limited exception for this...

Sent from my LG cellphone


And that would be illegal if cut under X amount. Sorry 2289 was always a pistol in Canada. Nothing a crosman manual says will change it.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:32 pm 
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The 2289 backpacker will always be a pistol. There's no way around it. It's no different from the 1322 or 1377 platform.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:48 pm 
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Ausername wrote:
i've been thinking about this for a bit, so i thought i'd ask.

OK, so the regular 1322 can shoot over 500 fps, but only if you pump it more then your supposed to (above 10). if you did that, then it would be restricted, cause of barrel length. here is A part i don't get. so if you were to add a stock to the gun, then it would be non-restricted SBR because it's not semi auto (heard somewhere sbr's and sbs's are non-restricted in Canada as long as they are not semi-auto) but there was a pinned post about a 2240 with a larger length that was still considered restricted because it "was" a pistol. Not sure then if a faster 1322 would be restricted then even with a stock then.

related also to my next point which would be about flat top pistons.

So, since at 10 pumps with a flat top it shoots like 520 fps, does that mean it would be non-regulated (just a regular airgun) if it was pumped to say 5 pumps? since the regular is legal as long as you stay under 10 pumps to keep it slow enough, does that mean if you changed out the valve, and just put less pumps into it to keep it under 500, could it still be non-regulated...? and if not going back to the whole converted pistol thing from before, whether or not it would be restricted or non restricted.

so i know that this post is structured badly, just trying to understand Canada's overly complicated airgun laws. hopefully someone can even understand what i'm trying to get across with this wall of text.


We don't have SBR here in Canada. That a US term. SBR is any rifle with a barrel under 16". In Canada for a Semi Auto to be NR, it has to be over 26" OAL and a barrel length over 18.5", if not it falls under restricted. A manual action can have barrels under 18" from factory, but needs to meet the 26" OAL.

You can register a 13xx as a restricted but have fun with a registered range only airgun. That technically you cannot even shoot in your back yard.

But this goes back to everything people tell you. IF you are modding a 13xx. 22xx OR any airgun. It's your responsibility to make sure you're under legal limits. If it's shooting 520 with 14.3's at 10 pumps. Then you made a restricted. So you either going to need to clip springs or do something to get it under 500.

There is a reason why I built PCP and such off 2260 maintubes. They're actual rifles, and in the FRT as rifles. So I can go 10" barrel and put a 1/2" spacer on the stock and make a legal PAL rated rifle. Where if you did that with a 2240, it be restricted.

1377, 1322, 2289 they're all the same.

So if you want to make a PAL rated 13xx, your going to need to get a 760, or 2100, or some people use 140 ( actual rifles ) main tubes/pump tubes and follow the definition of a NR.

Our laws are not really that complicated. If you been dealing with them for the last 20 years.


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