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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:51 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:43 am
Posts: 29
Location: Whitby, ON
Hello gang.

At the urging of Yep Yep, I will fire out this question to the people in the know, instead of frying my brain for a couple of hours surfing the web. This isn't the norm for me as I tend to want to find out what I can before I start firing off questions, but Yep Yep mentioned being bored when the forum posts are quiet, so I'll do my part to help alleviate his boredom. :-) As you can see from my introduction posts, I'm pretty fast on the keyboard and have no problem at all with verbal diarrhea. :-)


It was actually a comment to me from Yep Yep in my introduction post that got me thinking about this.

I suspect that 99.9999% of all pellets I will fire will be at inanimate targets, and hopefully out around 25-50 yards. For the occasional pest shots I'll be taking in the sub division, it will be a lot closer. I haven't had a chance to measure the distance yet, but from where I was planning on shooting from (my kitchen table out the patio door), I think I would be around 7 yards. I'm pretty sure that I can move back in the kitchen and take a longer shot that would get me to the 10 yard distance.

As mentioned in my introduction, I am looking at the Hawke Airmax 3-9x40 AMX scope for the TX200. It's the recommended scope by Airgun Source which is where I'll be purchasing my equipment (they are only about an hour away). I've read and watched some reviews on this scope and it looks like a great scope for me to start out with. It's looks like great performance for the price point.

I had a quick look at the specs and Hawke list the "Focus/Paralax" at "10 yards to infinity".

This is where my lack of experience comes in. If I can't get back far enough in my kitchen and the squirrel or rabbit is sitting in the grass 8 yards from me, or 9 yards from me, how blurry would the image be? As a few people pointed out, if I can hold my gun steady in any way at all, there shouldn't be much chance of missing a target at that distance providing I can see where I'm aiming. Would I be able to see the silhouette of the rabbit's head and its eye so that I can get a good shot placement even if it's not a crisp image? What about with a smaller animal like a squirrel? If it's just a big fuzzy smudge, then I may have a problem.

I'll measure the distance exactly to make sure I can somehow get at least 10 yards. If not, then maybe I think about a different scope to start out with. If all goes well, we'll be retired in the county in 3 or 4 years, so this will no longer be a potential problem.

Alternatively, at that distance, I could just flip the gun around, rush the rabbit, and club it with the stock. Kidding!! :-).

Cheers.
Gary


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:23 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:26 pm
Posts: 68
Location: Edmonton
When i’ve looked through my variable power scopes, both with ao and those without, if the image was blurry it was at the highest power but dialling it to a lower power made the image clear (this is in my basement at a distance of less than 30’).


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:49 am 
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Location: Caronport, Saskatchewan
Yep, I've looked through many scopes that only adjust to 10 yards and at 5 yards they are blurry until you zoom out to 5 power or so, which is perfect for shooting at a rabbit close up anyway, otherwise if zoomed in you'll be hard put to even find it in the scope picture =)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:11 am 
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I've personally had very good experiences with UTG bugbuster scopes. They can focus down to 3yds with perfect focus. I also recently purchased a 3-9 x32 ohhunt scope which also can focus down to 3yds it just as good as my UTG bugbusters. Can't recommend them enough:)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:44 am 
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Location: Eastern Townships
I have two Hawke Airmax 3-9x40, and I can assure you that at 7 yards they're still well focused (at the lowest magnification), when the AO is set to the lowest setting (10 yards). IMO, at that range you don't need more magnification, I was able to shoot pellet on pellet with my .177 HW35E.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:50 am 
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Location: Ottawa
I have a Hawke AirMax 3X9X40 on my Diana 430L, and a Hawke Airmax 4X12X40 on my Beeman R9, and while most of my shooting is 10 yards or more, I have had no problem focusing at a bit closer distance by using less power. I even reduce power to the 4-5 range when shooting 10 M targets and find if I'm not stacking pellets, its not the fault of the scope or the springer - its the shooter - LOL.

I have found that I need to re-zero the scope each time I change pellets, so find one your gun likes and stick to it for consistency.

I also find AGS are are good firm to deal with, even if my drive is a bit longer @ 3 hours.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:40 pm 
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Location: GTA, ON
Yes, I have one AirMax too, 4-12x 40mm AO IR which I put on my HW35E and shooting all the time indoors at about 9 meters. Pretty good scope at all!

I of course fixed the objective lens focus setting at 30ft (9.144 meters) for my case. And it can still provide a clear (IMO, close to sharp already ) picture at 6x to 7x power and start to getting blurry at 8x power at 7 yards distance. Of course, lower down the magnification power can cheat your eye for a sharper picture ~

Image

And we can turn the rear eyepiece to adjust the focus at the reticle.

As the eye piece is also a part of the lens, adjusting it will slightly affect the picture you see from the scope. So you can take advantage on this and fine tune the eyepiece to have a sharper picture. Just don't tune too much as you will get a blurry reticle then...

Image

And AGS just gave you a very good recommendation on the AirMax scope. You don't need to worry about the focus /parallax much, as you are right, even a bit blurry on the picture, won't make you miss the POA (point of aim), and the TX200 will finish the game as expected to print the POI (point of impact) on the POA for you.

Nice combo of the TX200+Hawke AirMax scope! Enjoy it ~

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:12 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:43 am
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Location: Whitby, ON
Thanks to everyone for the great replies. Especially from the two of you that actually own the same scope.

I feel better now that the Airmax will deal jus fine with the occasional short range shot, but be good for my main use. Thanks Yep Yep for the detailed response. Fun with words AND pictures. :-) Of all the areas of shooting, I think that optics is where I have the most to learn, and how to integrate the optics to the ballistics theory. Looking forward to applying the new knowledge to the actual shots.

Cheers.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:33 pm 
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Location: GTA, ON
[emoji38] remember your new hobby is shooting, not calculating... I always use this to comfort myself when I got headache and confusing when I met the 'scope related issues'... The theory looks simple, but the calculation just too difficult for me ~ [emoji38]

So some times, open (iron) sights are easier to manager... Only mean how to use not means shoot well with them...

However you can't put an open sight on the TX200....... Looks you already need another gun now ~ [emoji38]

Happy shooting ~

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HW30/35
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HW40+Extender
HW45+Grip panels from Russia


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:43 am
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Location: Whitby, ON
I just checked the distance with a tape measure. From a comfortable position at the kitchen table, the closest distance I would shoot would be just over 7 yards and the longest would be about 11 yards. All should be good with the Airmax.

Thanks again!

Yep Yep, I'll try to make this one work before I run out for gun number 2. :-)

Cheers.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:42 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:21 am
Posts: 1201
Location: Toronto, Ontario
I shoot at distances from 6 to 8 yards out at my place and own 3 scopes with the 3 to 9 times magnification. When you use the 3X and 4X power magnification on your new Airmax scope, you should be fine with dispatching those critters as the visual will be clear enough to take a good head shot. As stated by a few members already, the picture gets a little muddier once you pass the 5X power magnification. 3x power should be sufficient enough to be able to land shots into a 1" diameter target; especially at 8 to 10 yards out. The advantage of the Hawke Airmax scopes are their fine reticles. I have one mated to my TX200 and it's a fine combination. Before installing my Hawke Airmax scope, I had a Leapers scope with a thick reticle and it was quite challenging to hold the reticle still on a very small target on a low power magnification.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:09 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:16 pm
Posts: 1271
Location: United States
In my experience it's not a big deal to shoot outside the parallax zone, but the closer the object is the more pronounced parallax error will be. It's pretty simple to check for error, you simply set the gun or scope on a fixed surface pointed at whatever object at whatever range. Lets say a rest and pointed at a target at 20'. Now look thru the scope, which the parallax is set at the 30' mark. W/o touching the gun, simply move your head side to side and/or up/dwn a bit. You'll see the reticle moves in relation to the target. That's parallax error. It's simply some distortion and the nature of the beast, but the problem is your poi can change since your eye isn't always in the same spot, which is vexing to many. If pointed at a target 30' away the reticle should stay put, prob solved. You'll still see some distortion happening, but the diff is the reticle at center stays on target. Now crank the parallax to a further range and look at your 30' target and again the reticle moves. That is all it is, just distortion screwing you up. The problem is many people are unaware of this and it's vexing. Side note; I think everyone should do this test at the closest setting to ensure the scope is set correctly b/c 30' on the dial may really be something different. Who knows if the mfg actually checks, or just slaps them together in about the right spot b/c time is $ and they don't care about you.
Two fixes to shoot closer than the min adjustment: #1, and what I suggest, is basically centering your eye behind the scope. Set it to the min # again, like 30', then target something closer like 20'. Move your eye closer until you see the darkness around the edges of the image, then simply make sure the visible image is centered, meaning equal darkness all around. It may be easier to pull your eye back instead, I guess it depends on how the scope was made and your personal preference, but do what works for you. This means you are inline with the lenses and your eye position is/will be in the same spot every shot. So the potential for parallax error is there, but it's not affecting you. In no time at all you'll be able to do it with a full visual image with the darkness just outside of view, and eventually you'll do it w/o even thinking about it. I often set my scopes, specifically those w/o parallax adj, so the eye relief is where I'm just at the edge of seeing the darkness so any error on my part and the darkness creeps in from the side to alert me. Fixed scopes, like a 4x32 Centerpoint on a Crosman, are set to ~100', but since I usually shoot at closer ranges I adjust that to ~60M or so depending on how I feel. Now there's less error overall for general plinking but I still that have that darkness to rely on so not a big deal.
Fix #2; physically move the objective lens in/aft to bring the overall parallax range closer. This is what I do to the example 4x32. You simply thread the objective lens in and use the aforementioned test to dial it in to the range you want. This is all the adjustment is doing on YupYup's example scope and you can watch it do so when turning the dial. The problem is the closer you want it to go the more adjustment is needed b/c parallax is worse the closer you are. Note on the dial there you can see 200-300 yard settings are the tiniest adj, but 30' to 40' is huge. Going from 30' to 20 will be even further off, and to 10' even more so. My guess is you will not be able to adj down much further than the oem mark, and I'd bet 10' is likely impossible w/ any scope. Of course doing this to an AO scope will screw up the long range end quite a bit, and the #'s on the dial. So if you did this mod here's what I'd do: Pick a max distance you'd use, like 50 yards, then adj it so the infinity setting is now 50. Wherever the low end lands is where it lands and have a 50 down to whatever scope. If you look at the 50yrd to infinity adj on the dial you'll see it isn't much, so your adj on the low end will be just that; not much. The objective lens may not even go further in at all, or not much, just sayin this is possible and this example will help better understand your options and how it works. So I'd just leave it be and use the eye centering method which is very effective.
Again, the closer you are the more parallax is off. So if your parallax free setting it at 100M, it isn't bad and it'll be good enough to use (for most people) at say 70-200M. If set to 30' your window of "good enough" will be more like 25-40M, but that's subjective so one person may say it's 28-34 while I might say 15-60 since it doesn't bother me much.
Just play with the settings so you can see what the error is actually doing, and how that error changes w/ distance, etc etc, and I think you'll have it under control.
Fyi, my very first scope was a fixed centerfire scope back when adj parallax was virtually unheard of. Centerfire scopes are set to 100yards, so closer ranges are really fubar, yet w/o adjusting the lens I was spot on at whatever distance I wanted, which was usually closer to 10-30M, often much less. This is where I figured out that centering my eye via that darkness worked. I still have that same centerfire Nikon scope and it's still my best scope despite its disadvantage.
When outside the parallax free zone, specifically at closer ranges, you'll also be out of focus at higher mag levels. So you simply adj the mag down as needed, which when closer is not needed so no big deal :) So don't get a scope that can't adj down to 4x, but 3x would be even better. Focus is also subjective; does your target squirrel or whatever really need to be in perfect focus to shoot at?
If you don't want do this and just want a scope that works at close range, they do make some that I believe go to 5 yards? I think that's it tho since 5 is quite a jump from 10 and going to 4 is likely just too much.
Yet another issue w/ short ranges is the scope height over the bore. I'm sure you understand trajectory, and that the scopes line of sight is straight. So adding to that is the scopes height. If for example the scope where 3M above the gun it would be really only be accurate at one specific distance where the two lines intersect. Point being the higher the scope the worse things get, but like parallax, it's much worse at closer ranges. This is why I like my scopes to sit as low as possible, but barrel droop actually helps with this a great deal. If you wanted a really good super close range gun you'd want so much droop that the reticle is just skimming over the barrel. In the real world I just have to know my hold over at super close range just like I do at long range. When shooting at ultra close range, like 2', I'll skip the scope and eyeball my shot down the side of the barrel.
I hope this helps rather than make it more confusing :)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:04 pm 
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Location: GTA, ON
Quick question ~

So, actually the AO scopes, the objective lens adjustment is to adjust the parallax correction and when we see the focused picture at the target distance matches the AO ring settings, the parallax is correct and even we move our eye , the reticle can stay on where we aimed (or not moved from the POA too much), right?

And I use your #1 trick too ~ keeping the aiming eye at the same line through your scope / rear and front sights to the target is very important... Especially when shooting open sights pistols! I have been practicing hold the same position and pose, but shooting different targets by moving / pointing the muzzle to it, and feels very difficult to align my eye to the sights well and you jusy even slightly move your eyeball, you see a different sight picture! Hopes that we would have AO open sights....

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2240+14" barrel
Camo Chaser long barrel rifle kit
P3+2x20 Kit Scope
HW40+Extender
HW45+Grip panels from Russia


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:43 am
Posts: 29
Location: Whitby, ON
Thanks for the great detailed answer Chevota. It was super nice of you to take the time! :-)

Based on me measuring the minimum distance that I would be shooting at live pest of 7 yards, I'm thinking that the Airmax 3--9x40 will be able to focus properly based on a couple of other people's answers that have that scope. It sounds like at that distance, even if it's not 100% focused, I'll still be able to see my target well enough to take an accurate shot. based on where the rabbits usually sit, I'll probably be shooting at 9 - 10 yards most of the time.

As per your description of the ballistics, yes I do understand the basics that the height of the scope can really affect the aim and needs to be accounted for.

I've read your description, Yep's description and watched a few videos about parallax. It makes sense from a theoretical standpoint, but I think I'm going to have to have my scope in my hands so that I can walk through the adjustment process step by step and be able to see the different effects with my own eyes.

Looking forward to learning and experimenting.

Thanks again.
Gary


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:47 pm 
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At higher mag levels and closer ranges the focus and parallax line up, or match. That goes away at lower mag and/or distance. So at an extreme of close range and high mag the focus could be used as a range finder, assuming the range marks are accurate and there were more of them. I recall thinking exactly that the first time I played with such a scope. W/ enough mag I guess it could be accurate to ~ a foot, but at close range that doesn't matter so it's kinda pointless. At reasonable airgun ranges it can be used to some extent, but the only real need for a range finder, imo, is well over 100' and it won't work well enough to be useful at that range.
On the other end of the spectrum with low mag and great distance it will be in focus thru a wide range of parallax/OA settings, so parallax could be fubar but it looks fine.
Imo the best way to get a grip on this parallax and focus thing is to simply play with your AO/side adj scope and it'll quickly make sense. Also note that the internal movement of said adj within the scope is linear, but the actual distance it works at and corresponding markings are not. This is why I believe making a 10 yard scope adj down to 5 yards may be physically impossible.
Side focus is way cooler b/c it's easier to adj, and as a result it's also easier to find the parallax free zone based on focus. So w/ a side dial you can simply adj until clear, then adj back n forth to find the clear zone, then set it in the middle and call it good. Not perfect, but close enough. Again this is way more effective if you're at higher mag levels and closer, and basically useless at low mag and further out. My 3x12 UTG set at 10 yrds is outta focus +- 1 yrd from that. Set at 100 yrds focus is good from ~50 (est) to infinity. The 10 yrd setting at 3x is in focus from ~4 to 20 yrds. So the mag level diff is huge.

Since I usually only get a 2-4sec window to take a shot, which is usually birds or rats, it's better to skip the adj. At the very least I'd say use the side version b/c while a rabbit may normally sit still, he will no doubt see you adjusting an AO. This is why I usually set my parallax (fixed or not) to a general avg I plan on using and the mag to 3-4x so I don't have to adj at all. This is also why I don't mind using, and actually kinda like, the cheap Centerpoint 4x32 that most people hate. I like simplicity and low cost, should it have an accident, which is the same reason I like Crosman guns period. If I drop it or it gets confiscated, no biggie. If I had a gun/scope combo worth >$1k like many do, I'd never take it out of the yard. The 4x32 is basically one step above open sights which people like for the same reasons, and when bundled w/ a gun the 4x32 is only ~ a $5-10 add so I always take that option.

Some other ramblings if your're interested:
Still it's fun to play w/ max mag level and for that you do need parallax adj, and imo side adj is the only way to fly. My side scopes have pretty much ruined my AO scopes, and my latest side adj w/ a very fine etched reticle has ruined all my other scopes with the exception of my old Nikon I mentioned. The quality and light transmission of the Nikon is far superior to my expensive (imo) $150US UTG. Light transmission especially is super important to me b/c I shoot rats at night by moon or star light. F'rs are chewing the insulation off 120V wiring leaving it ripe to spark and burn the house down. So between that and overall disgust; no remorse... Shot one in the air cleaner box of my car. I'm sure he was just checking my filter to ensure I was getting the best performance...
The cheap scopes will claim 99% or whatever light transmission, but that's BS. Compared to my Nikon I'd say 50%. They're basically unusable after dark. So when you get a scope it may be something to consider, assuming a new Nikon is still as good as my 35+yr old version.

You can, imo, thank adult airguns for AO scopes b/c as mentioned they were rare and expensive in the past. They called them SWAT scopes b/c pretty much only SWAT guys ("people" to be PC :o) had a need for high mag levels at close range, or close range period. Beeman was the first, as far as I know, to have airgun rated AO scopes. They were $pendy, at least substantially more than I was willing to part with. I think $150US ~1980? From there others jumped on the band wagon but it took forever. I also believe the springer is the reason scopes are stronger across the board b/c no mfg wants to have rumors floating ~ that a BB gun broke their product. Most people have no clue airguns (springers) are harder on scopes, and Beeman took advantage of that in his advertising for his scopes by putting them on a machine gun to brag about how strong they are. Machine guns are probably the most benign thing to put them on, but it made for a cool video, bragging rights, and of course #1 which is sales.
I hope that all makes sense and answers your question? If not, let me know and I'll try again.

Joatmon66: You're welcome, I'm happy to help.
If mine will work at 4 yrds I'm certain yours will at 7. I mean how could it not? Just remember I had it at 3x to do that, but even 4x should do 7.
You will still have parallax error which could cost you maybe 1/4" of accuracy? I'm totally guessing b/c mine at 4yds seems to have ~1/2". That's only at the extreme, by that I mean I moved my eye super far up/dwn which you'd never do normally. So I think normal error would be half that? That should be good enough for just about anything, but now that you know what to look for I have no doubt you'll be spot on and worry free. If the gun is accurate I'd imagine eye shots w/o touching the eyelid are possible 100% of the time.
Note: The parallax error doesn't change with mag levels, only the focus of said error. So if for some reason you want max mag at 7 yrds, then simply adj it up as far as is acceptable. Note #2: If by chance you run out of eye piece adjustment, you can sand the body of the eye piece to thread it in more. I've done this but it was a long time ago, so maybe scopes these days have more adjustment? Fyi...


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