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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:35 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:56 pm
Posts: 476
Location: SW Ontario
JimGnitecki wrote:
1. I THINK the faster twist rate should not adversely affect pellet shooting, since, at least with firearms, a faster than needed twist rate does no harm. Is it the same with air rifles or not?

In fact either a twist rate that's too fast or a pellet shoot at too high a velocity will cause the pellet to spiral out of control. The over stabilizing effect is caused by the pellet slowing down quickly (because of it's low BC) but still spinning at a high rpm rate. It's a common problem with pellets shot too fast and only happens down range beyond 60 yards.
In fact FX uses the slowest twist rates 1:20" and lower (pellet's are rear stabilized anyway) and it's thought to be responsible for their success at longer ranges.
As you already stated slugs/bullets require faster twist rates to stabilize. FX get's around this difference by providing easily changeable barrel liners for pellets and slugs.
If you can afford it you'll never regret getting this gun. https://www.airgunsource.ca/us/fx-impac ... 700mm.html

Ed.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:56 pm 
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Yes Ed, I have seen a lot of favourable mentions of the FX Impact. I prefer the "non-industrial" aesthetics of the Crown and the Daystate Red Wolf, but the features of the Impact are pretty compelling. And "Ted Holdover's" commitment to it, and his success with it, is impressive.

How easy is it to actually change the barrel between pellet and slug usage?

Jim G


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:49 pm 
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Location: SW Ontario
Changing FX liners - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be_Lq35MFDQ&t=2s
4:20 into video.

Pellet and Slug stability - https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns ... stability/


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:54 pm 
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Location: P.G. B.C.
Easy/peezy on the FX Impact.

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Daryl


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:09 pm 
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EdLena wrote:


Thanks, EdLena. Those videos were both very helpful. I notice though that even the costly Impact X struggles to keep a 1 MOA 5-shot group at 100 yards, and it is supposedly one of the most accurate air rifles thanks to its adjustability, and in this specific video, its .25 caliber heavy pellet. It appears my objective of 1 MOA groups at 100 yards is right at the limit for currently available production rifles. :(

Jim G


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:41 am 
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Location: SW Ontario
Jim we all believe that if we just had a better gun or ammo or twist rate then consistent sub moas would come our way.
However with long range pellet shooting it's ALL ABOUT THE WIND!!!. Buy or make 2 or 3 wind flags and practice on windy days. That will bring your group sizes down more than a million dollar airgun.
You should read a lot of articles by Bob Sterne (rsterne on this and other forums). He's the most knowledgeable person I know about airguns.

https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns ... e-wind-is/
https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns ... crosswind/

Ed.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:13 pm 
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The Airgun Depot article I just read says, about the FX Impact:

"With the very first shot, it is immediately evident to any shooter that the Impact will put lead on target all day long. Accuracy is at the heart of every gun that FX makes, and this innovative model is certainly no exception to that rule. In fact, this manufacturer offers some of the most accurate rifles that we have ever shot. When testing the .22 caliber version with 18.13-grain JSB pellets, we were able to easily hold sub inch groups out to 50 yards."

So, apparently, the most accurate air rifle made is being applauded because it can merely "hold sub inch groups out to 50 yards."

That translates, at BEST, to sub TWO inch groups at 100 yards.

That's a pretty low accuracy bar for a rifle that in Canada costs $2900 plus 12% sales tax.

I don't mind that the wind has such a profound effect on pellet accuracy. But when the basic rifle, in the absence of wind, can only do sub 2 MOA, why bother to even TRY to shoot one well? The rifle itself makes good skill sets and technique a futile mission. A $2900 2 MOA firearm rifle would be viewed as a joke.

If this is the best there is, that's pretty disappointing. I guess air rifles are REALLY at best 50 yard devices.

Jim G


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:00 pm 
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Location: P.G. B.C.
Interesting concepts. What I saw in some of the videos, was groups at 50 meters(or yards) being
barely 1/4" to 3/8" holes for 10 shots with FX rifles shooting pellets and/or bullets - indoors, no wind.

There are no .22 or .25 cal. air guns that can match a match .22 RF at 100 yards. Many of those will
consistently shoot sub inch at 100 meters.
My $300.00 Marlin .17HMR still does 1", 5-shot groups at 200yards off a bipod and bench, with no rear bag.
I agree that a $2,900 centre fire or even rim fire rifle should do much better than 1" at 100 yards or meters
and indeed rifles costing much less than that are capable of shooting tiny groups at that range.
CZ .22Hornets are capable of shooting sub 1/2" at 100 meters - both of mine did, and they were sub-$800.00 rifles.
There is no air gun can come close, no matter what the cost. My .222 Sako is also capable of 1/4" groups at 100 meters
and is currently valued in the States at $1,400.00 to $2,000.00.

So you ask, why shoot air guns? Because they are fun to shoot.
If you want to shoot consistent sub inch at 100 meters, shoot a high quality match .22 LR with match ammo or a CF rifle you
can handload for.

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Daryl


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:39 pm 
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Location: SW Ontario
Daryl wrote:
There are no .22 or .25 cal. air guns that can match a match .22 RF at 100 yards. Many of those will
consistently shoot sub inch at 100 meters..

True for pellets but there is no reason an airgun shooting high BC slugs like Hubens can't do as well.

Ed.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:59 pm 
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Daryl: The 22 rimfire is tempting, and I know from my former Sako TRG in .338 Lapua that Sako makes very accurate rifles, especially when you make the time and effort to handload and tune.

My issue with .22 rimfire is that you cannot handload and tune it, and that removes a major component of fun and time consuming entertainment.

Maybe I need to find a centerfire caliber that can be handloaded for a lot less than the $1 per handloaded round that my initial look at the 6mm calibers exposed to me. I'm the type of shooter that loves to put 50 to 100 rounds downrange each shooting session, and have 6 to 8 sessions per month. The 6mm shooting would have cost me $350 to $700 per month, which is not attractive in my retirement budget.

Federal Match .22 rimfire costs about $0.30 per round in Canada, so that would reduce the cost to $105 to $210 per month, but the inability to handload and tune is unavoidable.

.22 caliber pellets cost $.03 to $.04 per round, and slugs (the politicially correct name for air rifle bullets :) ) seem to start at $.06 to $.09 per round if you stay with .22 caliber, so the cost is FAR more reasonable than ANY firearm, being in the $11 to $65 per month range. This helps to justify the $3000 cost of a really good air rifle. But, it appears that I'd have to cut my range expectations down from 75 or 100 yards to 50 yards so that when the groups are large, I KNOW it's me, not the rifle.

Thinking . . .

What are the best groups shot under ideal conditions (no wind and a good shooter with a good rifle rest setup) at 100 yards with a SLUG-barreled air rifle?

Jim G


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:37 pm 
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Saves you the walk for 200 yards to look at the target, off course you can use a spotting scope :lol:


JimGnitecki wrote:
Daryl: The 22 rimfire is tempting, and I know from my former Sako TRG in .338 Lapua that Sako makes very accurate rifles, especially when you make the time and effort to handload and tune.

My issue with .22 rimfire is that you cannot handload and tune it, and that removes a major component of fun and time consuming entertainment.

Maybe I need to find a centerfire caliber that can be handloaded for a lot less than the $1 per handloaded round that my initial look at the 6mm calibers exposed to me. I'm the type of shooter that loves to put 50 to 100 rounds downrange each shooting session, and have 6 to 8 sessions per month. The 6mm shooting would have cost me $350 to $700 per month, which is not attractive in my retirement budget.

Federal Match .22 rimfire costs about $0.30 per round in Canada, so that would reduce the cost to $105 to $210 per month, but the inability to handload and tune is unavoidable.

.22 caliber pellets cost $.03 to $.04 per round, and slugs (the politicially correct name for air rifle bullets :) ) seem to start at $.06 to $.09 per round if you stay with .22 caliber, so the cost is FAR more reasonable than ANY firearm, being in the $11 to $65 per month range. This helps to justify the $3000 cost of a really good air rifle. But, it appears that I'd have to cut my range expectations down from 75 or 100 yards to 50 yards so that when the groups are large, I KNOW it's me, not the rifle.

Thinking . . .

What are the best groups shot under ideal conditions (no wind and a good shooter with a good rifle rest setup) at 100 yards with a SLUG-barreled air rifle?

Jim G


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:29 pm 
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Location: P.G. B.C.
Tuning the .22's is all about the rifle and picking ammo that works in that particular rifle.
One of the guys in the local club, shoots his match Anschutz .22 LR to 500 meters in 100
meter increments.

"What are the best groups shot under ideal conditions (no wind and a good shooter with a good rifle rest setup) at 100 yards with a SLUG-barreled air rifle?
Jim G"?

I don't know the answer to that question.

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Daryl


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:12 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:52 am
Posts: 3453
Location: Caronport, Saskatchewan
50 yards it is pretty "easy" to get 1/2" groups with pellets with a decent barrel and a fairly decent day. A customer of mine just took his dreamline classic out and got 20 shots inside 7/16" at 50 yards. My Chief, Qb78D pcp and my M11 can all get 1/2" groups or better at 50 yards consistently. (I should add again with a decent day and only light wind, though the M11 25 cal does decent in wind.)
100 yards is really more than a pellet is meant to go for accuracy, so slugs are much better at that range, but 75 yards you should be able to get consistent moa groups with pellets with a decent gun.
Regards,
Wes

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:56 am 
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Location: Northeastern Ontario
Shooting 1 MOA at 50 yards with a pellet-shooting air rifle is more often said than done because it's easier that way. Why? The greater the distance the more that can go wrong, especially when wind is factor. Even a barely noticeable 1 mph change in wind between shots would cause 0.57" drift at 50 yards with an 18 grain .22 pellet with an MV of 950 fps. At 100 yards a 1 mph crosswind will drift the pellet over 2.2". With that much wind drift, it is necessary to shoot under conditions where there is an absence of wind. Even with wind flags, reading the wind can be a difficult task, especially when shooting pellets. In addition to that, unsorted pellets have sufficient variation in size and weight to add tremendously to the challenge (but that aspect can be discussed at another time).

A properly set up .22LR can be superior to air rifles in many ways, except perhaps one. That is consistent MV. A good PCP can produce extreme spreads of under 10 fps. With .22LR, the ES of the ammo can vary considerably, even with top tier match ammo. Anyone who has shot .22LR for accuracy is wasting his time with bulk ammo, especially high velocity bulk ammo, which has too great an ES and is too inconsistent in other ways to be worth considering. Match .22LR ammo is made in batches called lots (pellets are also produced in different batches or lots). The best top tier match ammo may have an ES of 10 fps, but such lots are hard to find. Rimfire shooters looking for good .22LR ammo can expect to have extreme spreads of 30 - 40 fps. A 30 fps difference in MV between .22LR rounds will result in 0.11" of vertical at 50 and 0.81" at 100 yards. To put this another way, a 10 fps difference between rounds means 0.07" of vertical at 50 and 0.26" at 100 yards.

By comparison, with a 10 fps difference in MV on a good PCP, the difference in vertical with an 18 grain .22 pellet at 960 and 950 fps at 50 is about 0.1" and at 0.45" at 100 yards. (Note: these figures are approximate because it seems Chairgun can't be manipulated to give more exact figures).

The above shows how, in terms of vertical spread on target, consistent MV's are more critical as target distance increases. A good PCP should give more consistent MV's with a smaller ES than a .22LR.

When even a slight change of wind comes into play, however, the .22LR round is much superior. As noted above, with a 1 mph change in a crosswind between rounds, the pellet will drift 0.57" at 50 and over 2.2" at 100 yards. By comparison a .22LR round under the same change in wind will drift 0.006" at 50 and 0.02" at 100 yards. Obviously the typical 40 grain .22LR bullet is much less influenced by the wind. And what's important to note is that the wind drift figures given are for a 1 mph change in crosswind between shots. Such a change is barely noticeable to many shooters, but it can be very noticeable on the target.

To recap, the PCP is more likely to give more consistent MV's than a .22LR. At the same time, if there is wind involved, the .22 pellet is more subject to the influence of the wind than the .22LR bullet.

One of the things that many serious bench shooters do to improve their rifles is to use tuners. Since .22LR ammo can't be loaded to a shooter's needs, shooters use these muzzle devices tune the barrel to the ammo. A tuner is a device attached to the muzzle of a barrel. It has a moveable weight on a graduated scale. Here is a simple explanation of how it works: "It is possible to "Tune" a rifle barrel so that where it is pointing at bullet exit time will compensate for small variations of muzzle velocity. In the "tuned" condition the slower bullets are launched at a slightly higher angle than the faster bullets. The difference in launch angle can allow the slower bullets to hit the target at the same elevation as the faster bullets." For further details, see http://varmintal.com/a22lr.htm

Below is a rifle with a tuner.

Image

Tuners come in many different designs. The most common is probably the Harrell tuner (shown below). The end facing up in the photo below is bored to fit the outside diameter of the muzzle. What appears as the vertical scale in the photo goes from 0 to 5. Four revolutions of the outer part of the tuner moves it from 0 to 1 and so on. Once the shooter finds the best setting(s) on the tuner, his group sizes will shrink appreciably.

Image

Other tuner designs incorporate a tube, often carbon fiber, that can act also as a bloop tube, giving position shooters like those who shoot in Olympic style competition, the benefit of a tuner and an extended sight radius. Below is a Starik tuner tube on a BR rifle. If used on a rifle used in Olympic style shooting, the front globe would go on the end of the tube.

Image

For serious, competitive .22LR bench rest shooters, a tuner is absolutely necessary. It would be impossible to compete without one because of the accuracy advantage it confers. Of course there are shooting competitions that don't allow the use of tuners or have weight restrictions that preclude some rifles from using them. But since there is no way to hand load for .22LR, the most exacting shooters use tuners to get the most out of their rifles and ammo.

Can a tuner make a difference on a PCP? That is an interesting question, perhaps best left for discussion at another time.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:35 am 
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PenageGuy: Very interesting and well constructed posting. On the tuners: Since most air rifle barrels are rather flimsy compared to firearm rifle barrels, the tuner's weight might be too much for an air rifle barrel:

- Maybe way too much weight to tune properly on an air rifle barrel?

- Maybe actual cause the air rifle barrel to "bow" just a bit, given the relatively large weight on the end of a very long lever?

- Maybe make the air rifle barrel more vulnerable to impact damage with such a relatively large weight on the end of a very long lever?

But maybe a tuner designed specifically for air rifles would work?

Jim G


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