Questioning whether pellets are superior to balls.

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Jester
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#16 Post by Jester »

LarryS wrote:Interesting about the Cd of a sphere being 0.07-0.5 That is tending to support what I am yapping about...
How does that support what you're talking about? What you said was "The smallest possible surface area MUST have the least amount of drag.....". Did you not notice on the same webpage that the Cd of the airfoil shape was only .045? With both objects having the same frontal area, the airfoil obviously has more overall surface area, yet has LESS drag than the ball.
LarryS wrote:and we both know that properties of air craft wings etc., have nothing to do with this except Bournelli's principle when we get around to that.
I don't think anyone has mentioned the shape of an aircraft wing yet - what was mentioned were airfoils. The airfoil that is illustrated on that website is not the shape of an aircraft wing airfoil, and it is relevant to ballistics.

Anyway...
hotsky
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#17 Post by hotsky »

Pellets are more accurate, but BB’s penetrate better (in the same weight category) because they don’t have a skirt to increase the drag.

I prefer pellets...
LarryS
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#18 Post by LarryS »

Hi Walter! You are a principle motivation on this subject. If it was not for your cooperation I would have just worked on this alone.

I'm equally interested in surface finish.... what IF the surface were roughened microscopically or had teeny dents..... like the balls appear to have..........

I can't seem to find how to post a .jpg paintshop sketch so imagine......

a ball moving fast on an axis with rifling spin perpendicular to that axis, and little imperfections on the surface of the ball..... the laminar flow would be VERY much different at front, near front, side, far side, and end. Like a golf ball with spin..... but in our case the spin IS perpendicular to line of flight, and, AND, should reduce drag even better than a golf ball. Of course no lift.... LarryS [/img]
LarryS
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#19 Post by LarryS »

Sorry Jester.... What I am trying to say is I am not shooting airfoil shaped balls. Neither the balls or the pellets follow an airfoil design or purpose.
:-)

The sphere has the least amount of surface area.... i.e., 3-D objects can't be any smaller.
TCooper
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#20 Post by TCooper »

As was mentioned, the likely reason for the increased penetration of the ball in the Pyramid Air article is the reduced surface area. The frontal and side area of a ball is less than the frontal and side area of a lead skirted pellet. The flared skirt might create more friction... but at the same time it might be responsible for better long distance accuracy.

The BB and pellet will start out at the same MV if they are the same weight. What happens to velocity at 20-30-40-50 yards? If the domed pellet has a higher BC then the pellet should retain more velocity at longer distances. No? The penetration test on the Pyramid Air web site opened my eyes to BB penetration performance, but I wonder what happens at 40 yards. Does the improved BC of the pellet enhance penetration enough to surpass the BB penetration at the longer distances? Muzzle penetration tests are nice but we don't get that close to game... usually. I guess a ballistic program could be used to determine the remaining velocity of the BB and JSB Exact domed pellet at certain longer distances, say 30-40 yards (same MV). A pumper rifle or a rifle with adjustable velocity could be used to try to duplicate the two velocities but move the test to the muzzle. Penetration could then be re-tested taking aerodynamic advantages into consideration.

Yes, I have to agree that IF the lead BB and pellet happen to have the same velocity at impact then the BB seems to have better penetration.

We can agree that a BB has usefulness at 15 yards for hunting. Accuracy is adequate and penetration is better than a pellet. Putting this type of distance limitation on a projectile might not be everyone's desire. Do you think a BB will outperform a pellet at 30-50 yards when they start at the same MV?

The issues are penetration and accuracy. At short distance the BB has enough accuracy to get the job done but what are the distance limits and are they useful for hunters? Penetration is better with the BB at short distances but what about longer distances? Does the improved BC of a domed pellet create higher velocity at 30-50 yards and better penetration?

Once again, this topic is great! I hope to learn more facts as I read on.

Thanks,
Todd
Last edited by TCooper on Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:51 am, edited 3 times in total.
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papaburger
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#21 Post by papaburger »

LarryS wrote:Papa burger, that is a good URL.

Interesting about the Cd of a sphere being 0.07-0.5 That is tending to support what I am yapping about... :-)

The parachute skirt behind a pellet would be a much more complex frontal surface equation I think unless they discount partial vacuums creating cavitation of enormous proportions... Thankyou, LarryS
you are welcome. My knowledge on fluid mechanics/aerodynamics/ballistics is very poor. This topic is very interesting.

I was wondering why the Cd of sphere vary so much (from 0.07 to 0.5). How to keep the Cd in the low region ? A Cd of 0.5 is bad for external ballistics.

What cooper suggested is the way to go - experiments, experiments. We need somebody to design these experiments properly and record the result.

There seems to be 3 different area to be tested:
Internal Ballistics
External Ballistics
Terminal Ballistics

Still it wil be nice to have a wind tunnel simulation software to help us understand the external ballistics. Perhaps some freeware on computational fluid dynamics (CFD).
LarryS
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#22 Post by LarryS »

TCooper & Papaburger -Excellent points all. I think we are in common agreement on the principles pretty much....but I still favor balls....so far.

In the final analysis we may have to independantly test fire my assortment of balls against your own preferred pellets. I would attempt to find a some people here who have PRECISION 22 caliber rifles THAT MUST BE CAPABLE of repeat firing at the same velocity(EXACTLY) a number of times for the tests to be meaningful. I would send by mail samples for the shooting tests.

From that testing we can most easily determine the pellet vs the ball DROP at_a_distance_ on bench shooting where the human element is minimized. That drop is a solid indicator of whether drag loss is greater in a pellet or a ball IF.... the weights are the same and the shooter is careful.

If the ball hits higher than the pellet at say....90 feet, it would mean the ball RETAINED its velocity better or it <edited>was traveling faster at time of impact.... And I win!! :-)

The reason we may have to resort to this is.... we can use the Bc formula to equate a ball.... but we run into problems with the pointeds, we do not know the form factor. ALSO, even more important.... the wasp waist form of the pellet(forgot the term) interupts any drag formula, AND the sum of the combined drags of a pellet.... waist shape, skirt size & shape, plus a HOLLOWED skirt....are enormous drag factors. I have found no formula or description which even comes close that we could use to estimate whether the Bc of a ball would have more effect in slowing a ball down than_all_that_summed_drag_ of the skirted wasp waist parachute. :-)

Ballistics of bullets only help a little.... here is sum(pun) of the stuff I am trying to find to help us decide this issue, but we will still need to back it with dynamic shooter tests. -LarryS

<edited>Incidently... my KE box showed the "muzzle energy" of a Lobo ball was EXACTLY the same as a Daisy wad-cutter at 1.5 feet.

Ballistic coefficient (BC) = SD / I

SD is the sectional density of the bullet, and I is a form factor for the bullet shape. Sectional density is calculated from the bullet mass (M) divided by the square of its diameter. The form factor value I decreases with increasing pointedness of the bullet (a sphere would have the highest I value).

Forward motion of the bullet is also affected by drag (D), which is calculated as:

Drag (D) = f(v/a)k&pd2v2

f(v/a) is a coefficient related to the ratio of the velocity of the bullet to the velocity of sound in the medium through which it travels. k is a constant for the shape of the bullet and & is a constant for yaw (deviation from linear flight). p is the density of the medium (tissue density is >800 times that of air), d is the diameter (caliber) of the bullet, and v the velocity. Thus, greater velocity, greater caliber, or denser tissue gives more drag. The degree to which a bullet is slowed by drag is called retardation (r) given by the formula:

r = D / M

Since drag (D) is a function of velocity, it can be seen that for a bullet of a given mass (M), the greater the velocity, the greater the retardation. Drag is also influenced by bullet spin. The faster the spin, the less likely a bullet will "yaw" or turn sideways and tumble. Thus, increasing the twist of the rifling from 1 in 7 will impart greater spin than the typical 1 in 12 spiral (one turn in 12 inches of barrel).
TCooper
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#23 Post by TCooper »

Hi Larry,

I think we all win when the correct answer is exposed :D Facts/truths are always interesting to learn.

Yah, I understand what you mean when you say it's difficult to compare the roundball to the pellet because of shape differences. As you said, actual tests will be needed.

You might have seen this info before but the pellet performance links on this page might be helpful to you. http://airguninfo.w2blc.com/database.htm

This link has BC numbers. The .177 ball is 0.014 and the JSB Exact is 0.019 and the CPL is 0.023. I have no idea if that's a big difference or not. I have never spent time with the ballistic numbers end of the sport.
http://www.airgunexpo.com/airgundb/pelletbc.cfm

Todd
LarryS
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#24 Post by LarryS »

Excellent URL's Todd.

Gotta hit the sack now its getting late....but will revisit the site tomorrow for what I can glean from it with my feeble brain.

I did note they steered clear of balls.... probably not enough interest or sources. But all still good data for serious shooters!! Someone went thru a LOT of trouble assembling that from measure!. -LarryS
LarryS
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#25 Post by LarryS »

Forgot to answer Papaburger....

I "think" the Bc spread of 0.04-0.5 is describing the coefficient transition when departing from a sphere to a point. (actually vice-verce)

Since the equation does not appear to take into account atmospheric density for high trajectory shots such as cannon, and the Mass or diameter could have an enormous range of values(e.g., infinite dia., infinite compounds ) it would rule out either of those.

My best guess... Now I MUST get to bed.... C/U
Jester
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#26 Post by Jester »

LarryS wrote:The sphere has the least amount of surface area.... i.e., 3-D objects can't be any smaller.
Sure they can - think about a sphere that has been "squished" flat in one dimension. From the front it has the same surface area, but from the side it might look like a grain of rice. This shape wouldn't be very useful for ballistics, but it has a smaller surface area.
I think what you're getting at though is that any object with the same volume can not have a smaller surface area than a sphere - that I'll agree with.
LarryS
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#27 Post by LarryS »

Jester, I stand corrected. I tend to get so carried away with focus on certain things that I get careless in description.

Volume of a an object is correct as you say.

Now if we could get enough rifle velocity to approach the conditions of the Lorenze-Fitzgerald contraction equation......... heh-heh -LarryS
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#28 Post by LarryS »

Looks like we are making good progress on gathering up the .22 ball manufacturers. Cibles has confirmed the stocking of H&N graphite & copper plated balls and I have placed an order of 500 each in .22 calib.

I wait only for their estimate of shipping charges by e-mail.

Now.... Are their ANY URL's to sources of .22 balls OTHER THAN: Lobo, Ballistics, and H&N?. We need all of the manufacturers to find the best ones. I have made no progress on Hornady for air rifle ammo in .22

Thankyou, LarryS
Joseph
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#29 Post by Joseph »

it has been my experience that pellets whoop BBs arse. of course, i dont hunt, i only go plinking, and i havent really been around all that long. just my two cents.
LarryS
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#30 Post by LarryS »

Joseph, No argument there. Pellets do "Whop" B-B's.

B-B's roll out the barrel of pellet guns if not retained by a magnet or spring because of small size. Many are held in the rifle by its ferric content against a magnet. They are used mainly for smooth bore Daisy's and the like for beginner rifles.

What we are talking about is lead balls.... balls which can seat in a rifled barrel, and have much larger size ranges than mere B-B's. And when shot with powerful air guns.....can mash the hell out of anything in its path whereas the B-B generally bounces all over the place.

It is like comparing a Rhino beetle to a real Rhino. Two totally different things. -LarryS
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