Marksman 2004
Marksman 2004
I bought one of these from D&L and am totally impressed. It is a copy of the Weihrauch HW 40 PCA and is a very good shooter for less than half the price. Worth looking into if you are in the market for a new pistol.
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ustilago
- Supporting Member 2009
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- Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:47 am
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I liked mine so much I bought a second one to tinker with.
Nice trigger, very consistent velocity and scary accurate.
If it starts to leak, they are not too complicated to disassemble to replace the cup seal o-ring. Hell, half the time you can just flip the o-ring over and get a few thousand more shots out of it.
I don't understand why people slagged them so hard over the failure of a 20 cent o-ring.
Nice trigger, very consistent velocity and scary accurate.
If it starts to leak, they are not too complicated to disassemble to replace the cup seal o-ring. Hell, half the time you can just flip the o-ring over and get a few thousand more shots out of it.
I don't understand why people slagged them so hard over the failure of a 20 cent o-ring.
Fiat Lux
PM me for FTP/valve combos, RVAs, DPHs and assorted brass accents
PM me for FTP/valve combos, RVAs, DPHs and assorted brass accents
The history of problems with the M-2004 is quite long. First, the frame started bending on the original models. Apparently that was fixed in the newer issue. Then the breech seals started popping out of the grooves. This was a minor problem but if a shooter didn't push the seal back then it would get chopped by the barrel. The next problem was the rear sight being sloppy and loose. Then the frame pins creeping out. Then the worst problem surfaced... the pistol not shooting. Many M-2004 pistols failed to fire after being cocked. Some would hang fire, which is dangerous. Some shooters disassembled the grip contents and polished all parts and lubricated parts. This seems to help.ustilago wrote:I liked mine so much I bought a second one to tinker with.
Nice trigger, very consistent velocity and scary accurate.
If it starts to leak, they are not too complicated to disassemble to replace the cup seal o-ring. Hell, half the time you can just flip the o-ring over and get a few thousand more shots out of it.
I don't understand why people slagged them so hard over the failure of a 20 cent o-ring.
The yellow AirgunForum and the Chinese forum has had countless postings about bad M-2004 pistols. I have never seen so many complaints about a single airgun. One Canadian M-2004 owner reported returning 5 pistols before giving up. Another Canuck returned 2 and his 3rd stopped firing too. Many shooters have returned at least one bad M-2004.
I think the M-2004 can be a great pistol. If the R&D was a bit better I think Walmart (in USA) might have kept selling them. Too many returned pistols made the product not worth Walmart's grief.
The HW40 is a wonderful pistol. Any clone has the potential to be wonderful if the right steps are taken. A good HW40 clone, at 1/2 the price, would be a great deal.
Many airgunners own good M-2004 pistols but the ratio of bad-to-good pistols is a little bit high.
Todd
Re: Marksman 2004
Condor Al wrote:I bought one of these from D&L and am totally impressed. It is a copy of the Weihrauch HW 40 PCA and is a very good shooter for less than half the price. Worth looking into if you are in the market for a new pistol.
Mines great, no problems so far, got about 1000 rounds on it...
The rear pins move around a little, no biggie for me, and as for loose rear sight, I use a red dot so it doesnt affect me......
Great deal for the buck.....
Uwe
I wish I was wrong about the M-2004 facts. The countless postings by unhappy owners and the rejection by Walmart are not good indicators of high quality control.ustilago wrote:I must have a couple of good ones then.
It's great to hear that some airgunners got good M-2004 pistols. I appreciate the compact over-lever design. My HW40 has seen well over 20,000 pellets and I still enjoy shooting it. Next month it will be 7 years old. Wow, time flies!
My HW40 Review at http://my.tbaytel.net/coopers
Todd
From pyramydaire
thanks pascal
Friday, February 10, 2006
Marksman 2004 single-stroke pistol
by B.B. Pelletier
Here's a sporting pellet pistol that can also be used for informal target shooting. It has fully adjustable sights, a single-stroke pneumatic powerplant, a nice trigger and it sells for less than $50. It's the Marksman 2004 pistol!
Marksman's 2004 single-stroke pneumatic pistol is a direct copy of the HW 40 PCA/Beeman P3.
Made in China
Let's get this out in the open from the start. This pistol is made in China for Marksman. Marksman is based in Southern California, where they build many of the guns they sell. The Marksman 1010 spring-piston pistol is the oldest and most famous of all the guns they make. Some day I'll write a report on the 1010, but today we're looking at the 2004.
One more thing to reveal. This gun is a close copy of the Weihrauch HW 40 PCA, which Beeman sells as the P3. And, Marksman owns Beeman. As far as who did what to whom or is the 2004 just as good as the P3, I am not qualified to say. Yes, there is a lot of intrigue in the airgun business, but I try to stay out of it if I can. I'm just interested in this pistol on its own merits.
It looks like high quality!
Don't underestimate the Chinese as manufacturers. If they have a good design to begin with, and if the factory can overcome some cultural hinderances, they can make products as good as those of any other country on this planet. Where they fall short is in a cultural belief system (no doubt the result of Communism) that "good enough is all it takes." When that belief system runs the show, things go downhill fast. Some Chinese airguns are so laughably poor that they are a comedy of errors and deserve the scorn they receive from the rest of the world for making those airguns.
In other areas, the Chinese have now set the world standard. Optics, for instance. Most sport optics (scope sights, lasers, astromonical telescopes, dot sights, etc.) are now made in China. Most of the world's finest cameras are either made there or their lenses are ground there, because the Chinese lead the world in lens production. The Europeans and Japanese set them up in that business in the 1970s, and they've been expanding the market ever since.
The 2004 pistol I have looks more like a fine camera than it does a typical Chinese airgun. Whoever is in charge of making it is doing things right. There are no voids in the synthetic body, the corners and lettering are crisp, the plating on the bright parts looks even, the pins are all the right size and length (they're solid, not rolled), all the screws fit and are undamaged, and the lubricant doesn't smell like a slaughterhouse! These are all the visible indicators that a typical Chinese airgun would get wrong. The only way to tell if the barrel is any good is to shoot the gun. The way to test the powerplant is with a chronograph.
Shooting
I chose two target wadcutter pellets I've come to trust for this test. The JSB Match Diabolo is a world-class target pellet, and the Gamo Match pellet, while less expensive, often performs just as well. I shoot 10-meter air pistol competitively, so my experience with both pellets is first-hand. I find pumping the 2004 a little hard, which is probably due to the length of the top part of the gun that's used as a pumping lever. This is not a gun for youngsters. On the other hand, the pumping effort became smoother and somewhat lighter as the shots increased. Pumping the gun automatically sets the safety - a feature I detest but understand in today's litigious world. There is no dry-fire feature.
The trigger-pull is slightly creepy (that means you can feel the movement of the trigger through stage two of the pull) but very nice and light at 1-1/2 lbs. The only feature that would make it nicer is an overtravel adjustment. There IS a small screw of some kind in the trigger blade but no corresponding access hole in the triggerguard for the Allen wrench to fit through, so I was unable to make any adjustments.
The front sight is a wide square post that is too wide for the rear notch. It was difficult to obtain a precise sight picture because of little light on either side of the front post. Nevertheless, I managed to group five shots inside three-tenths of an inch at 25 feet when I did my part. That answers the big question about the barrel. This one is very good! The rear sight adjusts in both directions, but the screws lack detents. Pay attention to the scribe marks around the elevation adjustment screw and the orientation of the screw slot on the windage screw to see how far you've gone. They move the shot group very precisely.
Velocity
Marksman says this gun shoots 410 f.p.s. JSB Match Diabolo pistol pellets averaged 411 f.p.s. with a 3 f.p.s. total deviation over 10 shots. Gamo Match pellets went an average of 406 f.p.s. with a 9 f.p.s. variation for the 10-shot string. All shooting was done in 58-degree (F) weather. I'd say the 2004 is right on the money!
Evaluation
The Marksman 2004 pistol is a $150 value selling for less than $50! It's that good. I cut this gun no slack because of the pistol it copies, but this one needed no apologies. If I were Weihrauch, I'd be concerned.
thanks pascal
Friday, February 10, 2006
Marksman 2004 single-stroke pistol
by B.B. Pelletier
Here's a sporting pellet pistol that can also be used for informal target shooting. It has fully adjustable sights, a single-stroke pneumatic powerplant, a nice trigger and it sells for less than $50. It's the Marksman 2004 pistol!
Marksman's 2004 single-stroke pneumatic pistol is a direct copy of the HW 40 PCA/Beeman P3.
Made in China
Let's get this out in the open from the start. This pistol is made in China for Marksman. Marksman is based in Southern California, where they build many of the guns they sell. The Marksman 1010 spring-piston pistol is the oldest and most famous of all the guns they make. Some day I'll write a report on the 1010, but today we're looking at the 2004.
One more thing to reveal. This gun is a close copy of the Weihrauch HW 40 PCA, which Beeman sells as the P3. And, Marksman owns Beeman. As far as who did what to whom or is the 2004 just as good as the P3, I am not qualified to say. Yes, there is a lot of intrigue in the airgun business, but I try to stay out of it if I can. I'm just interested in this pistol on its own merits.
It looks like high quality!
Don't underestimate the Chinese as manufacturers. If they have a good design to begin with, and if the factory can overcome some cultural hinderances, they can make products as good as those of any other country on this planet. Where they fall short is in a cultural belief system (no doubt the result of Communism) that "good enough is all it takes." When that belief system runs the show, things go downhill fast. Some Chinese airguns are so laughably poor that they are a comedy of errors and deserve the scorn they receive from the rest of the world for making those airguns.
In other areas, the Chinese have now set the world standard. Optics, for instance. Most sport optics (scope sights, lasers, astromonical telescopes, dot sights, etc.) are now made in China. Most of the world's finest cameras are either made there or their lenses are ground there, because the Chinese lead the world in lens production. The Europeans and Japanese set them up in that business in the 1970s, and they've been expanding the market ever since.
The 2004 pistol I have looks more like a fine camera than it does a typical Chinese airgun. Whoever is in charge of making it is doing things right. There are no voids in the synthetic body, the corners and lettering are crisp, the plating on the bright parts looks even, the pins are all the right size and length (they're solid, not rolled), all the screws fit and are undamaged, and the lubricant doesn't smell like a slaughterhouse! These are all the visible indicators that a typical Chinese airgun would get wrong. The only way to tell if the barrel is any good is to shoot the gun. The way to test the powerplant is with a chronograph.
Shooting
I chose two target wadcutter pellets I've come to trust for this test. The JSB Match Diabolo is a world-class target pellet, and the Gamo Match pellet, while less expensive, often performs just as well. I shoot 10-meter air pistol competitively, so my experience with both pellets is first-hand. I find pumping the 2004 a little hard, which is probably due to the length of the top part of the gun that's used as a pumping lever. This is not a gun for youngsters. On the other hand, the pumping effort became smoother and somewhat lighter as the shots increased. Pumping the gun automatically sets the safety - a feature I detest but understand in today's litigious world. There is no dry-fire feature.
The trigger-pull is slightly creepy (that means you can feel the movement of the trigger through stage two of the pull) but very nice and light at 1-1/2 lbs. The only feature that would make it nicer is an overtravel adjustment. There IS a small screw of some kind in the trigger blade but no corresponding access hole in the triggerguard for the Allen wrench to fit through, so I was unable to make any adjustments.
The front sight is a wide square post that is too wide for the rear notch. It was difficult to obtain a precise sight picture because of little light on either side of the front post. Nevertheless, I managed to group five shots inside three-tenths of an inch at 25 feet when I did my part. That answers the big question about the barrel. This one is very good! The rear sight adjusts in both directions, but the screws lack detents. Pay attention to the scribe marks around the elevation adjustment screw and the orientation of the screw slot on the windage screw to see how far you've gone. They move the shot group very precisely.
Velocity
Marksman says this gun shoots 410 f.p.s. JSB Match Diabolo pistol pellets averaged 411 f.p.s. with a 3 f.p.s. total deviation over 10 shots. Gamo Match pellets went an average of 406 f.p.s. with a 9 f.p.s. variation for the 10-shot string. All shooting was done in 58-degree (F) weather. I'd say the 2004 is right on the money!
Evaluation
The Marksman 2004 pistol is a $150 value selling for less than $50! It's that good. I cut this gun no slack because of the pistol it copies, but this one needed no apologies. If I were Weihrauch, I'd be concerned.
Hi thecozz,
I hope my postings above didn't get you in a defensive state. I only mean to present the truth about the Marksman 2004. As I always say about this pistol, it's a great design but has had many growing pains over the last two years. We can't ignore facts and still have an accurate evaluation.
I am very fond of the low-moderate priced single stroke pneumatic pistols. So far I have owned the Webley Nemesis, Daisy 717, Weihrauch HW75, and Weihrauch HW40. They are all accurate shooters. The SSP design is inherently accurate, as long as the barrel is reasonable.
I bought my HW40 in March 1999. It was one of the first shipments Beeman received and none were available in Canada yet. The pistol is very accurate and 1/4" groups of 5 shots at 10m are the norm. I'm sure the M-2004 will shot about the same because it's basically the same pistol.
Over the last two years there has been countless postings about the M-2004 on the Chinese AirgunForum and the FunSupply Airgun Forum. We also have quite a few postings here that are available through the search function. The yellow forum postings started as soon as the pistol became available.
As a HW40 shooter I was excited about the new M-2004 and almost ordered a couple. The bad news started on the forums and I held off on the purchase. Pics were shown of the bending frames, which proves the material/quality was not the same as the HW40, although it looks identical. The HW40 has never been known to bend. Thankfully the Chinese company changed the mold and the problem seemed to go away. The other smaller M-2004 problems that are seen are not common with the HW40. The biggest problem with the M-2004 still seems to surface. I'm not sure why the pistol jams up inside and will not fire. It could be a burr on a metal part or a weak spring or some other small flaw. Many pistols encounter this problem and many don't. The ratio is what killed it's sales in Walmart-USA. Unfortunately, the forums are full of postings about returned M-2004 pistols. As I mentioned above, one Canadian returned 5 pistols and gave up. Another guy, who I know, returned 2 and his 3rd jammed up too. The list of complaints on the forums is long and Walmart would likely still be selling the 2004 if it had better QC.
I do not own a M-2004 so I cannot make personal comments on the material quality, although the design was copied from the HW40 that I own. Some shooters do own both pistols and have done side-by-side comparisons on the yellow forum. They say the black frame material seems a bit different although it is shape the same. The trigger/mock-hammer/safety are different metal but they are shaped like the HW40 parts. The internal parts are blued steel rather than a shiny finish like the HW40. The metal might be a different alloy... but the shape is the same. Springs and seals can look identical but not have the same quality. The M-2004 seals are known to be softer and easily damaged when compared to the nitrile seals on the HW40. I don't know if the springs are the same quality. Nobody has complained about M-2004 internal springs but maybe that is why the pistol jams (hammer spring dead)... but this is a guess.
I truly hope the M-2004 gets re-engineered with higher quality control. The Chinese are known to copy many airguns and usually do a decent job at it. The Diana 52, HW95, FWB65, Gamo rifle... have all been copied. The best copy still seems to be the Crosman 160 Chinese clone (QB78)... although it usually needs some minor refining when purchased. "If you can't beat them then imitate them" seems to be the Chinese motto. The M-2004 follows this direction.
As I said, I like the M-2004 design. The copied design is proven and that's why they copied it. The HW40 has become a popular pistol and a wonderful shooter. With some effort, the M-2004 copy can be called "identical". Hopefully the cloning company is still making small changes to overcome the minor problems.
I'm not criticizing the M-2004. It's a clone of my favourite SSP pistol
I'm only presenting a few facts.
A while ago I spoke to Scott Illingworth about the HW40. Scott shot national level 10m pistol competitions. He said, with the HW40, he can get within a couple of points of his typical scores with a top dollar 10m pistol. The pistol can do it! I got into the 90% class with the HW40, when shooting the online 10m competitions.
The trigger can be adjusted with a typical allen wrench. Use the short leg of the wrench to insert in the screw.
The cocking effort will become very smooth after a few thousand shots. My HW40 is very smooth after more than 20,000 shots.
Finally, we all know that there are good M-2004 pistols out there. They don't all jam up inside. The minor problems with pins, sights, and seals can be easily fixed.
A good M-2004 is a great buy.
Todd
I hope my postings above didn't get you in a defensive state. I only mean to present the truth about the Marksman 2004. As I always say about this pistol, it's a great design but has had many growing pains over the last two years. We can't ignore facts and still have an accurate evaluation.
I am very fond of the low-moderate priced single stroke pneumatic pistols. So far I have owned the Webley Nemesis, Daisy 717, Weihrauch HW75, and Weihrauch HW40. They are all accurate shooters. The SSP design is inherently accurate, as long as the barrel is reasonable.
I bought my HW40 in March 1999. It was one of the first shipments Beeman received and none were available in Canada yet. The pistol is very accurate and 1/4" groups of 5 shots at 10m are the norm. I'm sure the M-2004 will shot about the same because it's basically the same pistol.
Over the last two years there has been countless postings about the M-2004 on the Chinese AirgunForum and the FunSupply Airgun Forum. We also have quite a few postings here that are available through the search function. The yellow forum postings started as soon as the pistol became available.
As a HW40 shooter I was excited about the new M-2004 and almost ordered a couple. The bad news started on the forums and I held off on the purchase. Pics were shown of the bending frames, which proves the material/quality was not the same as the HW40, although it looks identical. The HW40 has never been known to bend. Thankfully the Chinese company changed the mold and the problem seemed to go away. The other smaller M-2004 problems that are seen are not common with the HW40. The biggest problem with the M-2004 still seems to surface. I'm not sure why the pistol jams up inside and will not fire. It could be a burr on a metal part or a weak spring or some other small flaw. Many pistols encounter this problem and many don't. The ratio is what killed it's sales in Walmart-USA. Unfortunately, the forums are full of postings about returned M-2004 pistols. As I mentioned above, one Canadian returned 5 pistols and gave up. Another guy, who I know, returned 2 and his 3rd jammed up too. The list of complaints on the forums is long and Walmart would likely still be selling the 2004 if it had better QC.
I do not own a M-2004 so I cannot make personal comments on the material quality, although the design was copied from the HW40 that I own. Some shooters do own both pistols and have done side-by-side comparisons on the yellow forum. They say the black frame material seems a bit different although it is shape the same. The trigger/mock-hammer/safety are different metal but they are shaped like the HW40 parts. The internal parts are blued steel rather than a shiny finish like the HW40. The metal might be a different alloy... but the shape is the same. Springs and seals can look identical but not have the same quality. The M-2004 seals are known to be softer and easily damaged when compared to the nitrile seals on the HW40. I don't know if the springs are the same quality. Nobody has complained about M-2004 internal springs but maybe that is why the pistol jams (hammer spring dead)... but this is a guess.
I truly hope the M-2004 gets re-engineered with higher quality control. The Chinese are known to copy many airguns and usually do a decent job at it. The Diana 52, HW95, FWB65, Gamo rifle... have all been copied. The best copy still seems to be the Crosman 160 Chinese clone (QB78)... although it usually needs some minor refining when purchased. "If you can't beat them then imitate them" seems to be the Chinese motto. The M-2004 follows this direction.
As I said, I like the M-2004 design. The copied design is proven and that's why they copied it. The HW40 has become a popular pistol and a wonderful shooter. With some effort, the M-2004 copy can be called "identical". Hopefully the cloning company is still making small changes to overcome the minor problems.
I'm not criticizing the M-2004. It's a clone of my favourite SSP pistol
I'm only presenting a few facts.A while ago I spoke to Scott Illingworth about the HW40. Scott shot national level 10m pistol competitions. He said, with the HW40, he can get within a couple of points of his typical scores with a top dollar 10m pistol. The pistol can do it! I got into the 90% class with the HW40, when shooting the online 10m competitions.
The trigger can be adjusted with a typical allen wrench. Use the short leg of the wrench to insert in the screw.
The cocking effort will become very smooth after a few thousand shots. My HW40 is very smooth after more than 20,000 shots.
Finally, we all know that there are good M-2004 pistols out there. They don't all jam up inside. The minor problems with pins, sights, and seals can be easily fixed.
A good M-2004 is a great buy.
Todd
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canshooter
- Posts: 928
- Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:22 pm
- Location: Mississauga On. Ca.
- Contact:
I am one of the guys that returned 3, the first just stopped holding air, but what really concerned me was that the second 2 started firing as you closed them. I damn near shot myself with the last one before I gave up.
Airgunning is my hobby... and it is cheaper than
maintaining an outside relationship with another woman.
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maintaining an outside relationship with another woman.
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