legality of airgun silencers

[Wrong Way]

Some of you guys are gonna HATE this..........But Mr. Ironsights is 99% correct. Some areas are, admittedlly, "Grey" pertaining to the silencer issue, but again it pertains to the "device" rather than the "application". I would argue against him in this case. However, all other points he made re: replicas, are absolutely correct. Now airsmith, before you tell me to "Get it straight from the horses mouth"...let me reveal my source: My father in law. O.P.P. Det. Const. J. Dyke (ret) former firearms officer, Province of Ont.

Ryan

[TCooper]

Hey WrongWay,

What does your father-in-law say about a silencer on a non-PAL airgun?

It appears as though section 84 of the CCC does not exempt non-PAL airguns from firearm status (according to 84-3). This would mean 84-1 would define a silencer as illegal on a non-PAL airgun. I hope I'm wrong.

Todd

[Jester]

A silencer is defined as "a device or contrivance designed or intended to muffle or stop the sound or report of a firearm"?

In Canada, a "firearm", as far as I know, is only a firearm if it shoots above 500fps. Where does it say that a non-PAL airgun is considered a firearm for this part of the law? The only reference I have seen is where it says that if the airgun is used in a crime then it will be considered a firearm.

Oh and what about a device that quiets my toaster? I think it shoots at about 6fps

[Wrong Way]

He states the same as what's posted above. It is NOT the firearm which makes it illegal, it is the device in itself. While it does state "reduce the noise of a discharge of a firearm", and depending on how it is interpreted, certain airguns are not ALWAYS considered a firearm....it doesnt matter. If the moderator will reduce the report of say....a cp-99, the same moderator will reduce the report of a .17 HM2 if installed....therefore, it is illegal.

Ryan

[Jester]

But although it might also dampen the sound of a firearm, that's not (necessarily) what it's "designed" or "intented" to do. If it's used on a non-PAL airgun, then wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that it was only designed for, and intened to be used on, a non-PAL airgun?

If I shot through a piece of insulation to reduce the report of my 22LR, would the insulation be considered prohibited device? I don't think anyone could claim that insulation is illegal just because it could be used in such a way...

[Wrong Way]

I posed the same question to him....except I used the example of a plastic pop bottle. His response: "No, a pop bottle wont get you in trouble unless you use it......but you can be damn sure if I found that same pop bottle with baffles glued to the inside of it, or stuffed full of insulation with a barrel sized hole in the cap the CP would be on you like a fat kid on a smartie"

Sad truth is....it's not up to the CP to prove that the device in your home is a silencer, it's up to YOU to prove that it isn't (which you are more than welcome to try)

Ryan

[TCooper]

Hi Jester,

Have a look through the Criminal Code of Canada. I illustrated my thoughts above based on our written laws. In certain sections a 495fps airgun is not considered a firearm. Section 84(3) defines these sections and the content of section 84 is not included in those that exempt a non-PAL airgun from being a firearm. Section 84(1) defines a silencer. I'm not positive of the interpretation but it appears as though a non-PAL airgun may be defined as a firearm in the sections that are not stated in 84(3).

We are likely walking into an area that has not been tested yet. There may be no case laws for our discussion and someone would have to become the precedent and it's not going to be me. LOL

CCC http://lois.justice.gc.ca/en/C-46/267161.html

Items are often classed as to their useage. Example - If you use a hammer to assault someone, the hammer becomes a weapon. If you use a pop bottle to silence a firearm, then the pop bottle become a silencer.

Todd

[Jester]

Thanks for the responses

Items are often classed as to their useage. Example - If you use a hammer to assault someone, the hammer becomes a weapon. If you use a pop bottle to silence a firearm, then the pop bottle become a silencer.

This is kinda what I was trying to understand. Everyone keeps repeating that it's "the device" that's illegal, regardless of what it's used on.

Hypothetically, say I have a pipe with some washers welded into it. Coinsidently, this "device" could be very similar in design to a firearm silencer, and would almost certainly work as one. But until it's actually put onto a firearm, as far as I'm concerned it's just an adapter to connect two different diameters of hose

I don't have any such "adapter", but I'm just trying to suggest an example where it's not just the device itself that would have to be considered.

I took Police Foundations a few years ago (only completed one of two years then changed my mind about the hold cop thing). One of my law professors told us that laws are often left vague or unspecific intentionally. The reason being that not every situation can be described in black and white, and sometimes wether or not a person actually committed a crime should be discussed (in court) before automatically convicting them.

[Wrong Way]

Te burden would be on you to prove that the "washers" were welded in there for a purpose relevant to the plumbing....sorry man, aint gonna happen.

Heres something really interesting for you guys though......Our indoor range has baffles instaklled in the ceiling, and sound absorbant materials on the walls (as to not piss off the neighbours)

According to the letter of the law......the entire room is a silencer, and therefore prohibited. Seriously, I checked it out!

[Krazy Mike]

[Eric]

are sound moderators that are part of the guns manditory features illegal in canada? for example ignoring the bullpup design the ed gun matador has a sound moderator built into the barrel that cannot be removed now i know that a barrel isnt illegal so would this be illegal?

[Bobby Ironsights]

Hey this is what I was talking about in this post, but I was told I made to much noise in the bush instead of a proper answer. Here check it out: http://www.airgunforum.ca/forum/viewtop ... highlight=

What I wanted to know is if these Muzzle Brakes get ??? by the Police while I/you are in the bush and ??? about it on the end of our Airguns ?

I've always thought that these things look kool and all, but the one I got from Kevin does redirect the sound. It doesn't lower it, and I was just asking what to say to the Police ? I know some Cops who are pretty diligent and would ??? this if they saw it. Like the ones in these Forum posts that R sold here...

Krazy Mikey...

I think that the muzzle break is quite alright, because while it MAY reduce or redirect the sound of your airgun, it's primary purpose is not to do so. It is designed and intended purpose is to reduce recoil.

The law prohibits....
( c) a device or contrivance designed or intended to muffle or stop the sound or report of a firearm,


I thing you are OK Mike, as long as your intentions for installing a muzzle break are other than the unintentional sound suppressing effects.


I would also like to take this opportunity to rescind portions of my prior argument regarding sound suppressors. I relied too heavily on the firearms act and that was a mistake.

Under the criminal code, airguns are determined not to be firearms 84, 2, c from the entire firearms act, and almost all of the criminal code, almost but not all.

In 84 1 c, the portion that defines the suppressor as a prohibited device, is not mentioned in 84 2 c.

This leads to something else rather interesting, in that a nailgun is also mentioned in 84 2 c, as being a non-gun, but not for the purposes of 84 1 c.

SO a device intended to muffle the report of a nailgun is also technically a prohibited device.

p.s. it's Mr. Coopers' advice to Jester to read the criminal code's specific treatment of airguns that caused me to realise I was in error. It's too bad, as I was really hopeful of for the lawful ownership of quiet airguns. Guess I'll just have to keep dry-firing .

[Krazy Mike]

Thanks Bobby Iron Sights for the info, I appreciate it...


Krazy Mikey...aka...Mike...

[airsmith282]

there is absolutly nothing wrogne with Muzzle brakes or Compensators in canada on any airgun

its the siliencers the law is concerend about

[Krazy Mike]